4-15-07

The following are additional e-mails in FAVOR
of WTP's questions regarding U.S./Israeli policy.

Sender identifying information has been redacted.
Letters appear as they were submitted.

Bob,

Excellent post. Attached is a couple of articles on the true Israel spoken of in the Bible. 

Alex 

“The Shocking Principle of Two Israels” 

(Taken from Chapter 3 of Exploding the Israel Deception, by Steve Wohlberg) 

Have you ever been hit so hard on the head that you started seeing double? Well, from what I have studied, the Christian world needs to get hit hard on the head with the truth of the New Testament! Then more Christians will start seeing double about the subject of Israel. According to the New Testament, there are now two Israels! The proof? Paul wrote, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Romans 9:6, emphasis added. In this chapter, we will discover that there is an Israel "according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3) and an Israel in the Spirit composed of both Jews and Gentiles who have personal faith in Jesus Christ. 

Paul wrote, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:6,7. Paul's argument is that Abraham had faith, therefore those who have faith are his children. We might call this the concept of "faith lineage." This truth is like a key that can open a lock in our heads. Once the lock is open, then we can understand the shocking principle of two Israels. 

John the Baptist understood and boldly preached the truth of "faith lineage." "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness." "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them 'Think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.'" Matthew 3:1, 7, 9, 10. 

Those Pharisees and Sadducees were part of Israel according to the flesh. They did not have faith like Abraham did, yet they thought they were his children. John the Baptist exposed this delusion. He thundered, "Don't think that!" John then laid the "axe" to the root of the trees by saying that if those men did not bear "good fruit" through faith like Abraham did, then they would be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." Verse 10. Thus natural lineage by itself is not enough. Without faith and a spiritual connection with God, those men were doomed. 

Jesus Christ taught the same truth. A certain group of Jews once said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus responded, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39. They claimed to be Abraham's children, but they had no faith. By saying, "If ye were Abraham's children," Jesus denied their claim. Christ continued, "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth. This did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father." John 8:40, 41.

They responded, "We have one Father, even God." Then "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God." "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murder from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." John 8:41, 42, 44, 47. 

What an atomic text! Here Jesus Christ Himself spoke words that blast into shivers a large portion of the prophetic theories currently held in the evangelical world. Jesus was talking to people who claimed to be Israelites, the children of Abraham. Yet they were only the Israel of the flesh! Jesus said they were not really Abraham's children at all. Because they had no faith and were following lies, their lineage actually went back to Satan, the father of lies! Soon we will separate God's truth from Satan's lie when we look at what Revelation really teaches about Israel, the 144,000, Babylon, and Armageddon. 

Jesus Christ also taught this same concept of "faith lineage" in John chapter 1. A spiritually minded Jew named Nathanael was wondering whether Jesus of Nazareth was really the Messiah. Retiring to a favorite spot under a fig tree, he prayed about the matter. Soon a friend introduced him to the Saviour. When Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, He said, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" John 1:47. 

Nathanael had a natural lineage that went back to Abraham. Yet he had more. In his spiritual life, he had gained victories over guile, which means deception. When Jesus discerned Nathanael's spiritual lineage to Abraham and Jacob, He called him "an Israelite indeed." Therefore, just as the man Jacob became a spiritual Israel, even so had this man Nathanael become an Israelite indeed. He was part of God's true spiritual Israel. 

Just as there are now two Israels, even so are there now two kinds of Jews. There are Jews in the flesh and Jews in the Spirit. In words of warning to certain Jews who were breaking the Ten Commandments, Paul wrote, "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God." "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but it thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision [Gentiles] keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?" "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of me, but of God." Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29. 

Did you catch that? Someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, "is not a Jew." His "circumcision is made uncircumcision." To God, he is a Gentile. And the believing Gentile, who through faith keeps "the righteousness of the law," his uncircumcision is "counted for circumcision." Thus to God, he is a Jew. The teachings of John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Paul all agree that natural lineage is not enough. Whether or not someone is "an Israelite indeed" depends upon that person's faith and spiritual character. Paul summarized, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3. Anyone today can become one of these "Jews," even if their father was Adolf Hitler! 

These concepts of "faith lineage," Jews being counted as Gentiles and Gentiles being counted as Jews, lead us into one of the biggest issues now facing the evangelical world. This issuue is at the core of prophetic interpretation. In it we are faced with two options. One is the truth, the other a lie. One leads to heaven, the other, possibly, to hell. 

The big question is "What about the promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament?" If we conclude that those promises must be fulfilled to the Israel of the flesh, then we must conclude that Jerusalem and the modern Jewish nation will eventually become the center of the final battle of Armageddon. But if we conclude that those promises can legitimately be fulfilled to God's Israel in the Spirit, then we must restudy the book of Revelation to discover how its end-time prophecies apply to Christians. 

Paul deals with this highly explosive issue in Romans 9:2-8. His words require careful thought. With "continual sorrow" in his heart, Paul wrote about his Jewish "kinsman according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." Verses 2-4. God did make promises to Israel in the Old Testament. Yet, what if some Jews do not believe in Him? Can God fulfill His promises to an unbelieving Israel in the flesh? If not, has His Word failed? 

Paul's answer to these important questions is clear. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Verse 6. Notice that the concept of "two Israels" is Paul's assurance that God's Word will not fail! Look carefully: "They are not all Israel [the Israel of God], which are of Israel [the Jewish nation]." Thus a Jew can be of the Jewish nation, and yet not be part of the Israel of God. Now, here is the highly explosive question. To which Israel will God fulfill His promises? 

Paul continues, "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Verse 7. Since not all physical descendants of Abraham are automatically God's children, therefore His promises are for those "in Isaac." Abraham had two sons. The first was Ishmael, who was born after the flesh. The second was Isaac, who was born when Abraham had faith in God's promise (Genesis 16:1-3, 15; 21:1-3; Romans 4:18-21). In Galatians 4:22-31, Paul reveals that Ishmael represents unbelieving Jews, while Isaac represents both Jews and Gentiles who have faith! "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." Galatians 4:28. The children of promise are those who "receive the promise  of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14. Therefore, the Israel that is "in Isaac" is the Israel of God in the Spirit! 

Paul concludes, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8, emphasis added. Here is a summary of Paul's reasoning: (1) In the Old Testament, God made promises to "the seed of Abraham;" (2) This "seed would continue "in Isaac;" (3) Isaac was born through faith; (4) Isaac represents those who have faith; (5) All who have faith "Jews and Gentiles""are counted for the seed;" (6) This seed is the "Israel" of God; (7) God will fulfill His promises to this Israel, and Therefore, "the word of God" to Israel has not been made of "none effect," even though some natural Jews do not believe! Thus we have the answer to the issue that means so much in prophetic

interpretation. The Bible is clear. God will fulfill His Old Testament promises to those "in Isaac," that is, to His Israel in the Spirit. Those who are only "the children of flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8, emphasis added. We should not expect God to fulfill His promises to an unbelieving Israel in the flesh, unless, of course, those natural Israelites choose to believe in Jesus Christ. 

We will examine one more atomic section before we close this chapter. What about Paul's question, "Hath God cast away his people?" Romans 11:1. This verse is being quoted around the world to prove that God has not cast away the Israel of the flesh. Yet notice Paul's answer: "God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham." Notice that Paul uses himself as an example to prove that God has not "cast away his people." Who are "his people"? 

In the next three verses, Paul refers to ancient Israel's apostasy in the days of Elijah. God said to Elijah, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." Verse 4. In Elijah's time there were also two Israels. One followed Baal, while the other followed God. Then Paul made this application. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Verse 5. Just as in Elijah's time there was a faithful remnant of Israel, even so in Paul's time there was also a faithful remnant of believing Jews, who, like himself, had been saved by grace. These are God's people. It is this faithful remnant of spiritual Israel whom God has certainly not "cast away." 

Soon we will see this exact issue addressed in the book of Revelation. As in the days of Elijah, we are now in the midst of a terrible apostasy. Yet today God has His "seven thousand" who have not "bowed the knee to Baal." They are His faithful remnant, His Israel in the Spirit. Like Elijah, they will be on the side of Jesus Christ and the truth at Armageddon!  

*Read More http://www.endtimeinsights.com/IsraelinProphecy
 

“Should Christians Focus on Earthly Jerusalem?” 

When it comes to Christians and Bible prophecy, the hot spot is Jerusalem. Prophecy teachers around the world are talking about Arafat, the PLO, the Jews, the Arabs, the peace process, a rebuilt Jewish Temple, and a final Middle East war of Armageddon. Pastor John Hagee's recently published book, The Battle for Jerusalem (2001), reveals this current focus. An advertisement declares, "Pastor John Hagee explains the heart of Israel's struggle for Jerusalem and the Holy Temple Mount - and why the battle for Jerusalem should be of major concern to Christians around the world." *John Hagee Ministries (magazine), March / April 2001.            

Should it really? While Christians should love Jewish people (and everyone else), and should definitely support Israel in her struggle against terrorism, we wish to ask - Does the New Testament really say we should focus on the earthly city of Jerusalem? And do New Testament prophecies, as is so commonly taught, really swirl around this location? The answer may surprise you. First of all, there is not one single direct reference in the book of Revelation to the earthly city of Jerusalem! Look for yourself. Jesus referred to "the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down from heaven from my God" (Revelation 3:12). "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from my God" (Revelation 21:2). "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:10). Here the New Jerusalem is plainly called "the holy city," and this is where the saints of God are to live eternally.            

Revelation 11:2 also refers to "the holy city." Again, in Revelation 22:19, we read about "the holy city." And Revelation 20:9 describes a final battle at the end of the 1000 years against "the camp of the saints ... the beloved city" (20:9). Christians sometimes apply these verses to the present, earthly city of Jerusalem, but Revelation itself does not do this. As we have already seen, Revelation defines "the holy city" as the "new Jerusalem" (21:2). Thus there is no proof that the book of Revelation has even one reference to earthly Jerusalem!            

Concerning the saints of God, the New Testament says, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16). This city is clearly the New Jerusalem. Paul told his readers, "But you are come to mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22).

The most powerful New Testament section on this subject is Galatians 4:22-31. An honest and careful study of Paul's words reveals that earthly "Jerusalem which now is" (verse 25) is compared to Hagar, Ishmael, (verse 22), and the flesh (verse 23). Amazingly, it is "cast out" (verse 31) and is no longer an "heir" to the promises of God. But the "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"  (verse 26).            

Christians should love Jewish people, and should seek to thoughtfully share with them the message of Jesus their Messiah. Yet according to the New Testament, our focus should be on the New Jerusalem, rather than the present, war torn city in the Middle East.            

For further reading on this important subject, see the book, Exploding the Israel Deception, by Steve Wohlberg 

http://www.endtimeinsights.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:27 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Answers to the AIPAC questions

Yes, No

The pattern is following Neiamiah.

That question fails to acknowledge that he stated that they would be re-gathered.

Yes

Yes, but we are not to interfere

Yes, the American Government should not steal from the American People and give to another, even a presumptively righteous nation, as then they are in the confederacy of the American Theives.

What are Palestinians? People in the West Bank are conquered Jordanians. Gaza was conquered Egyptians, Golan was conquered Syrians. What are Palestinians?

Yes, that is why the Arab League and their racist Muslim plan failed.

 Arabs are a threat to Israel

The Arab League.

Denied

Liberty is not resolved.

Israel has certain strength. That is why the King of Jordan invited the IDF into Jordan in the 1970’s to drive Arafat and the PLO out of his country, as they were threatening his rule.

Egypt and Saudi have received aricraft from the US including A-10 tank busters, AWACS, F-5’s (that my uncle was involved in providing for 3 years in the late 70’s) and Saudi is the only nation with the M1A2 Abrams Tank.

Liberty proved Israel is sovereign and will not look to America’s political system to ineffectively defend their nation. They are also under continual terrorist attacks and threats from suicide bombers. If we are to suggest that Israel does not need the stolen money from Americans, then they do not need the blood of our warriors as well,

The question of the value of “human life” conflicts with the legitimacy of a religion and culture that justified the murder of Israel at its birth and has active components which have not rescinded that order and intent.

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes, you will have to sell your cloak to buy a sword.

Part one Yes, part 2 is justified by the History of Heroes like Gideon, Samson, and others. SO part 2 of this question is false. Just as false as paying the IRS as unto Ceaser and acting as though one is conquered, not free.

Yes, albeit blindly.

FALSE!

True

True

True

True But not sacrifice of a whole religion, people, or Nation, except those that are cowards and kill children and the old. The Commandment to government stands since Joshua and Moses, Kill all fo the Amelkites.

Partially admitted and partially denied. Justice requires judgment.

True

Partially admitted and partially denied. Justice required a rule of law. Rule of law requires the willingness to apply judgment for the sustaining of a righteous nation.

Our legacy has been stolen from us.

We are more likely to be involved in authoring a history of ignorance.

We should not be financing any story at the cost of theft from our neighbors and countrymen.

Americans are guided by materialism. They are practically lost.

WTP should commit to a story of Justice and Liberty that condemns the wrongs of our Government making Israel a confederate in its theft and oppression of the American People.

 Thank you for sponsoring the debate.

 The alleged Philistine built credibility in his speech, then strained it.

 I count him among liars, as his home town is in the West Bank. He acheived his PHd in 1966, this means he was born on or before 1940.

 His birth certificate would not show him to be a Palestinian.  He would be a British Subject at Birth, then a subject to the Hashemite Kingdom of TransJordan upon or about the creation of Jordan by England after the War. 

If he will lie about one thing, I doubt his singular testimony about anything else.

 We must condemn our Government for its theft and opression of the American People and making Israel the iniquitous benefactor of the stolen treasure and Blood, so that both may be restored to HIS Order. 

[signed]

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 11:09 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Thanks, Bob

Dear Bob,

I commend you on taking yet another stand against tyranny.  How true it is that the subject of Israel is so touchy that to dare to examine and question the situation is enough to be labeled an 'anti-Semite' or worse.  (Of course the Palestinians are more Semitic than the European Jews in Israel today -- but don't bring that up either.)  I thank you for your courage to address one of the core issues driving the War on Terror and all the blowback associated with it.  Religious fanaticism is not good for any country.  The Golden Rule is still golden in my book -- and we best get back to it.  Fundamentalism of any kind -- Christian, Muslim, Jewish -- only serves the fear-mongering that the police state must continue to cultivate until we shake with fear of the impending Apocalypse.  If only today's Americans truly understood Liberty and the Responsibility that comes with it.  I thank you for your constant vigil in that regard.

Sincerely,

Eric

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 4:18 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: You are dead on in your interest in Israel

That country is in no danger from the Arabs. They are an annoyance but  cannot punch their way out of a paper bag.

It has nothing to do with the American Constitution and I don’t want my money sent there.

I do believe that the Jewish lobby is in control of our government and is leading us down the primrose path of destruction.

 Bill

 Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:47 AM
To: Bob Schulz
Subject: Fw: One more article by Uri Avnery

April 9, 2007
Subject: One more article by Uri Avnery
From: PLO Mission – Washington, DC

Uri Avnery  7.4.07

                                                Shalom, Shin Bet 

RECENTLY, THE CHIEF of the Shin Bet declared that the "Israeli Arabs", a fifth of Israel's population, constitute a danger to the state. 

He requested permission for the General Security Service to act against anyone who aims at changing the official designation of Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" - even if they use nothing but completely legal means. 

It follows that In the view of the chief of the Security Service, a central figure in the Israeli leadership, the task of the Shin Bet (now commonly known in Israel as Shabak) is not only to protect the state from spies and terrorists, but also from any challenge to its ideological designation, like the KGB in the former Soviet Union and the Stasi in communist East Germany. (The excellent Oscar-winning movie "The Life of the Others", now screening in Israel, shows how this worked in practice.) 

ALL THIS is reminiscent of things past. Rather naively, I had thought that they belonged to bygone days which could never return. 

Two weeks ago, the Israeli tabloid Yedioth Aharonoth published an interview with the lawyer Arieh Hadar, nicknamed Pashosh, a former chief of the interrogation department of the Shin Bet.  

Pashosh disclosed that "In the 50s, the great enemies of the Labor Party - and therefore of Issar Harel, the chief of the security services, the Shin Bet and the Mossad - were Uri Avnery and his weekly magazine, Haolam Hazeh. Avnery called the Shin Bet "the Apparatus of Darkness", and Issar was convinced that Uri Avnery would destroy the state. Avnery and his magazine were under constant surveillance. A colleague of mine earned himself quick promotion by recruiting an employee of Haolam Hazeh's printing press. Every week, this employee gave him a smuggled copy of the magazine a day before its official publication date. My colleague gave it to Issar, who brought it every week personally to Ben-Gurion."  

Pashosh added: "Issar had the Shin Bet publish a competing magazine, disguised as privately owned. The aim was to destroy Avnery." 

These revelations were not news to me. Years ago, Issar Harel himself disclosed that he regarded me as "Enemy No. 1 of the regime". It may be remembered that in those days, three bombs were laid in our editorial offices and printing plant and two employees were injured. The fingers of both my hands were broken in an (unsuccessful) attempt to kidnap me. None of these crimes was ever solved. 

In 1977, after coming to power, Menachem Begin revealed in an interview that at the end of the 50s Issar Harel approached him and told him that he had proposed to the Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, to put me in "administrative detention" - arrest without trial and without time limit. Ben-Gurion agreed, but posed a condition: that Begin, then the leader of the opposition, agree to it too, so that it could be done quietly. Begin demanded that Issar show him the evidence that I was a traitor, otherwise, he said, not only would he not agree, but he would raise hell. Issar never mentioned the matter again. 

Begin did not leave it at that. He sent me his trusted lieutenant, Yaakov Meridor, to warn me. In spite of the extreme difference of opinion between us, which found its expression many times in Knesset debates, Begin accepted me, it seems, as an Israeli patriot. 

THE QUESTION is, of course, why Ben-Gurion and the security service chief considered me "Enemy No. 1 of the regime".     

That brings us to the subject now raised again by the Shin Bet chief. 

I attacked Ben-Gurion on many subjects: the total domination of all affairs in the country by the Labor Party (then called Mapai), the corruption that was then starting to infect the ruling class, the discrimination suffered by Jewish immigrants from Oriental countries, the religious coercion, etc. 

But the pivot of this struggle was the definition of Israel as a "Jewish state". 

What is a "Jewish state"? That was never made clear. A state whose citizens are all Jewish? A state that belongs to Jews only? The "state of the Jewish people", which also belongs to millions of Jews who do not live here and are citizens of the US, Argentina and France? A state ruled by the Jewish religion? A state that expresses Jewish values (and if so, which ones?) 

Furthermore - who is a Jew, in this context? After many hesitations, the Knesset adopted the religious definition: a Jew is a person born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to the Jewish faith, and who has not adopted another religion. The contradiction between the definition of Judaism as a religion and the assertion that the Jews are a nation was solved by adopting the fiction that with us, unlike other nations, religion and nation are one and the same. 

The term "Jewish state" is nebulous. It can be interpreted in several ways. When one adds the word "democratic", it becomes an oxymoron - if a state belongs only to a part of its population it is not democratic, and if it is democratic then it cannot belong to a part of its population, even if they compose the majority. 

Instructing the Security Service - our name for the secret police - to act against those who strive by legal means to change the "Jewish state" definition - simply means to cripple Israeli democracy. It is one of the basic principles of democracy that everyone has the right to propagate his views and convince people to change the laws and the constitution, as long as only legal means are used. If he or she succeeds in convincing the majority of the citizens, the desired change comes about. 

Activating the secret police to abort this process would mean turning Israel into a police state. Not a "democracy protecting itself", but, rather, a state protecting itself from democracy. 

I HOPE that the State of Israel remains a state with a Hebrew majority, that the Hebrew language will remain its main language, that it will express the modern Hebrew society and its culture and also keep alive the Jewish tradition of generations past. (About the Arab side of the matter - see below.) 

But it must not do so by force, by way of oppression, by using the secret police and other means of compulsion. Natural processes must be allowed to work freely, whatever the results. We are not the only nation in the world in this situation.  

If Israel is an attractive country, natural increase will rise and many will knock on its doors, people who desire to join our nation. The Israeli nation - unlike the Jewish religion - can in principle absorb everyone who wants to belong to it. 

The relationship between a modern state and its citizens must be based on one consideration only: citizenship. The state belongs to all its citizens, and all of them must be equal before the law. That is what the 1948 Declaration of Independence promised: "The State of Israel… will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex." 

Some Israelis use the term "nation-state" as a pretext to oppress the Arab minority. They think about a nation-state in the spirit of the late 19th and early 20th century. In Poland, for example, where many of Israel's founders were born, the state fought against large communities of its own citizens - Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Jews and others.  

The most extreme example was the Nazi state, which was based on the idea that the individual exists only as a part of his nation, as a mere cell in the national organism. This model drowned in blood and has been besmirched for all eternity by the horrors of the Holocaust. 

Today the model that appeals to many is the American one. The American nation includes everybody who holds a US passport. A person who receives American citizenship - whether Mexican, Korean, Indian or Nigerian - at that moment joins the American nation and becomes an heir to George Washington, Abe Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt.   

All modern nations are moving towards this model, each according to its own rhythm. Poland, too, now belongs to the EU, where millions of people are moving from country to country without restrictions. In most countries there now live millions of foreigners who are gradually being absorbed into the national population. Their children grow up with the local culture and the local language and study in the local schools. Without this massive reinforcement, many Western societies could not exist any more, as far as the economy and demography are concerned. 

Will Israel, which misses no opportunity to describe itself as a Western country, turn its back on this reality and adopt the model of Pakistan, a state that was founded - at the same time as Israel - on an ethnic-religious basis? 

MY IDENTITY consists of many different layers. 

I am a human being, and as a human being I am a citizen of the world, bearing responsibility for the entire planet. I am committed to humanist values, to the ecology of the globe, to freedom, peace and justice for all. I hope that in the not too distant future, these values will be guaranteed by an effective world order.  

I am a member of the Israeli nation, together with all the other people who hold an Israeli passport. Israel is my state. I want it living in peace, secure, flourishing and respected throughout the world. I want a state in which it is good to live, and of which I can be proud. 

I am a son of the Jewish people. I am an heir to Jewish tradition, much as Australians and Canadians are heirs to the Anglo-Saxon tradition. There are Jewish values in which I believe, values of justice, peace and non-violence, which are very different from the values of the settlers in Yitzhar and Tapuah. I am close to the Jews around the world, and I am very glad that Jews around the world feel close to Israel. That is an emotional matter, which should not concern the state. 

When the State of Israel really belongs, practically and officially, to all its citizens, it will be much easier for the Arabs here to decide on their status. If they choose to belong to the Israeli nation, much as Hispanics in the US belong to the American nation, that will be fine. If they prefer the status of a national minority, they should enjoy the rights of such a minority in a modern state. Either way, the Arabic language and Arab culture must be fully recognized by the state. The affinity of the Arab citizens with the Palestinian people and the Arab world must be considered just as legitimate as the affinity of the Hebrew citizens with the Jewish people throughout the world. 

THAT IS my view. I intend to advocate it by all the legal means at my disposal in the democratic state that I helped to establish. 

And if the Shin Bet does not like it, well, that is a pity. I just hope that they will not put me under administrative detention because of it.

  -----Original Message-----
 Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:47 AM
To: Bob Schulz
Subject: Fw: HAARETZ 8.4.07 Israel does not want peace, by Gideon Levy

 April 9, 2007  

Subject: HAARETZ 8.4.07 Israel does not want peace, by Gideon Levy

From: PLO Mission – Washington, DC 

Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:32 PM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Israel

Just wanted to drop a quick note and say that I am in support of WTPs recent stance on the US policy toward Israel.  However, I would not try to get caught up on the whole biblical debate and just provide facts.   

One thing I would like to see is more of an "outing" of who is really responsible for all this.  The men who belong to the secrest societies, the, Illuminati, freemasons etc.  The "gauradians of the secrets of the ages." The New World Order.  This is the reason all this (war, income tax, mexico etc) is taking place.   

William Cooper has already exposed all of this on his website www.hourofthetime.com.  There is a good series entitled the Truth about the ADL that everybody should read.  Take care. 

-Matt  

Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:24 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: re your stance on Aipac et al

You are right-on, Bob!  I was thrilled to see that you got the 'whole picture' ...and your  substantiation for your action is very, very good.  Geo. Washington had it right, and you are following

in his footsteps.  It's time the American people wised up as to where their tax dollars are going, year after year, and all the perks in $'s besides.  Until we get a handle on our outgo of taxpayer dollars, we will drowned in the so-called 'debt'.  There has been no peace in the Middle East since the Israeli moved in over 60 years ago.  We read on the internet, that Israeli authorities insist

there WILL BE NO PEACE  and the insistence that the Palestinians are to be annihilated/removed shows in every attack Israel makes on the imperiled Palestinians.  I am ashamed to say that

America is part of the problem.  How dare we talk 'human rights' when the Palestinians have had none for over 60 year!!!

 Good for you for sticking up for us, the citizens of this country and the taxpayers.  After all these years of charity from America, the Israeli's should be self-sufficient rather than coming back again and again to feed at the trough for more and more of OUR money.  Enough is enough!

 Keep up the good work for America!

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:45 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Thank you

I just want to say thank you for all the wonderful work you are doing. You give me hope in a world gone mad. I hope and pray that through your efforts, and those of other great Americans like you, the rest of US will wake up and do whatever it takes to return this country to the Founding Father’s design. 

To peace and freedom!

Christine

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:06 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel and the General Welfare

Dear Bob,

 Thank you for your willingness to open the dialogue regarding Israel's role in America's foreign policy. It's the key to understanding the emerging supra-national synthesis.

 The most hidden, influential Israeli in the U.S. entered the White House under Carter in 1979. Dr. Amitai Etzioni is connected to numerous programs that eliminate American's liberty, and he is the founder of the movement designed to "balance" individual rights against the "community." He was a terrorist against the British, a soldier against the Arabs in 1948, and he studied philosophy under Martin Buber, the founder of the confusing Hegelian "I v. Thou" philosophy which introduced the concept of globalized political communitarianism. Every new law that balances our rights against the common good is a communitarian law. This Israeli theory of "community" is the principle behind every law you object to.

 I hope you have the time to take your research to the next level and begin considering the ramifications of the U.S. adopting international communitarian supremacy of law. The FBI identified a top level Mossad agent in the White House who was known to them only as "Mega." In my humble American opinion, Etzioni fits the bill, perfectly.

 Sincerely,

Niki

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:21 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel

Hello! I am currently looking into your web site as an option to strengthen my voice. I would like to thank you for bringing up some very viable points concerning US anti-constitution legislation. I wish that more Christians would really read and study God's word, instead of going by what their pastor says or their Mom's and Dad's. The Word of God tells us, that in the last days (which we are no doubt in) there would be a strong delusion, that if it were possible, it would fool the very elect! I can see what John was talking about. This great Church Age! Only grounded in what they have been taught, and not studying to show themselves approved. I just want to thank you for challenging me to take a look again concerning Israel. Most people don't realize, it was the UN who confirmed Israel's Statehood. The same UN that is the promoter of the "New World Order" The same UN, that wishes to dissolve the sovereignty of the United States of America. If Christian's aren't filled with God's wisdom (instead of man's) that only comes through study of His Word and Prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit, then they will fall for this great delusion! I challenge any Christian, to step outside the box that they have been programmed to stay in, and study God's Word! Quit taking every word that comes out of the mouth of these False Prophets as Gospel and read The Gospel for yourself! You may find, that not everything you have been taught is true. And that some of these theories regarding prophecy for end times and the coming of Our Lord Jesus, that you believe, because you have been taught, are false. Some which have only been in the theological circles for less time than our country has been in existence!

 Bob, take time to study The Word for yourself. Remove from your carnal mind, all pre-taught ideas, start from scratch and ask God to give you His wisdom concerning His Word. I will continue to do the same.

 Sincerely,

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:06 AM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Israel is the problem

The people who disagree are not American citizens and if they love Israel more they should go and live there. 

90% of all the people calling themselves Jews are Jews only in the sense that they subscribe to the religion very loosely and in a very twisted way. 

Their origins are Khazaria. They are Ashkenazi Jews. 

At no time in the history of mankind did any of these white skinned people ever set foot in the area today know as Israel and therefore have absolutely no claim to any part of Palestine. 

Don't take my word for it see for yourself.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm History of the Rothschilds 

http://www.erichufschmid.net/BenjaminFreedmansSpeech16.mp3  Ex-Zionist

Benjamin Freedman speaks at the Willard Hotel, Washington D.C., in 1961 

Imagine if the Chinese converted to the Muslim religion and started calling themselves Arabs and therefore deserved a homeland in Palestine. 

That is exactly what these Kazarian, Ashkenazi, Zionist criminals have done. 

The Zionists are an Organized Crime Terrorist Organization; nothing more! 

Semitic people are dark skinned dark haired brown eyed people, and that

includes the ethnic Jews; so calling people anti-semitic is a ridiculous thing to say since the majority of the Semitic people far outnumber the real dark skinned Jews. 

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine. 

For all you wonderful supporters of Israel; see where you stand after you take a look and a listen to all of this: 

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=8667011121551944391 Eustace Mullins:

The Neo-Zionist Order.

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html Israeli Propaganda - Control

of the Media

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBJgaBe5NgM Jimmy Carter – AIPAC Lobby

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3252642434022358005&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=undefined

Rep. Paul Findley

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8785876923462708738&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=undefined

Zionist War Crimes

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/ The hidden history of Zionism

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/zionisms_master_plan.htm

Zionism’s Master Plan for World Power

http://www.rense.com/general74/controls.htm  Who really controls America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YanWfwnsVb4&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4w7oYpDxUM&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jUaaBIBDb4&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 4

http://missilegate.com/rfz/swaz/davidcole.htm A Jew Questions the Holocaust –

examines Auschwitz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rD_rWcDRZQ&mode=related&search= Ralph Nader –

Who Owns America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG3G5nOnU20&mode=related&search= AIPAC

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3497308896275775092&hl=en Documentary

on US foreign policy. 

9/11 was beyond a shadow of a doubt an Israeli/Mossad/Zionist/Neo-Con Job! 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911+mysteries

9/11 Mysteries

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-36916906795057218 Iraq, PNAC, 9/11:

Where do all roads lead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L68t_xGEAzE&mode=related&search= Kay Griggs –

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_X2JIoa1RM&mode=related&search= Kay Griggs –

Part 2 

Bill Schultz

http://www.asylumgoons.blogspot.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:53 AM
To: Bob Schulz
Subject: US, AIPAC

Bob,

 wow!  I have read the "for and against" emails and feel compelled to write a little more to you.  

 1)  I didn't get that you were taking sides at all.  What I got was an attempt to shed light as to why the Income tax is fraudulent from a geopolitical perspective, ie that perhaps this unconditional support of Israel may be contributing to the fraud and needs to be investigated. 

2) You have obviously aroused a whole bunch of emotion from your email list and if any subject would conjure such a response it would be the middle east therefore I can only surmise that it was calculated and can only assume for good reason.

3) I was quite amazed out how many respondents were Christian.  Most Christian church type people are totally not on board with the tax honesty movement. The general consensus I have run into is that "good Christians pay income tax"  which is so repugnant to me I can only conclude they truly are sheep.

 4) Again I restate you are no stranger to controversy and therefore the subject matter is in good hands and should be addressed in the realm of the tax honesty movement if there is just a shred of evidence that foreign policy is complicit in the invalidation of the US Constitution. 

 I have read the Meisheimer/Walt documents and I don't consider the effort to be insensitive but only turning the light on to what is going on, which is a just cause.

I don't know that Israel needs 3+ billion dollars of annual support to remain viable in the Middle East.  I think that is a point that needs clarification.  I believe Islam will not peacefully coexist, and that may require this level of support, however it should be legitimate support not covert. I don't care what country is involved if a foreign policy subverts the Constitution then it needs to be stopped.  I think that US power brokers (politicians?) have a first duty to their constituents and if the Israeli Lobby is hiding the facts deliberately deceiving the US people it needs to be called to account for it.  Get it above board regardless of the degree of anti sentiment. 

 But then the US is so corrupt I am categorically an ideologist.

 Great social experiment, at least you know you have an active email list.  cp 

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:48 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israeli Aparthied

Dear Bob:

You have taken a bold (and risky) step by addressing this issue. But I believe you are doing the right thing (James 4:17), and even if it isn't rewarded in this life, it will be in the next.

It is difficult for me to fathom that Bible believing Christians, i.e., those who have actually studied Scripture, could refer to the people presently occupying that little triangle of land over there on the Mediterrenean Sea, God's "chosen people," or the "seed" of Abraham. Anyone who has read Isaiah 60,61 and 62 (or any of the Scriptures describing the prophesied kingdom), if they believe it means exactly what it says, cannot with any honesty say that what is described in these passages could have the remotest connection with the secular state that was instituted over there in 1947 with the aid of U.S. influence and money.

When God installs "true" Israel back in that land, He won't need tanks and warplanes (or U.S. money) to do it. There is no way this little socialist/fascist police state that calls itself Israel, is God's chosen nation, and therefore it and what it does should not be supported in any way, form or fashion by Bible believing Christians.

Keep up the good work! 

Mike

Pastor, Author, Bible Teacher

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:56 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: my favorite paragraph

... from your latest email update

 "Finally, we are not “anti-government.” We are firm believers in the principle that to secure men’s individual, unalienable Rights, Governments must be instituted among men. Once instituted, however, Governments must be watched by the People and held accountable to the Constitution, to prevent the servant Government from taking over the House, turning the tables on and forcing the People to do its bidding."

 Best,

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Dominic [mailto:domcass@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:18 AM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel issue

Bob,

I have read some of the emails in opposition of the stance of WE the People on US's Israeli foreign policy. All I can say is that people are to willing to formulate their opinions and positions on issues without doing thorough research on the subject matter. They take position on the opinion of others and their own beliefs. But before one takes a position, one should do the research for themselves and then formulate their own position or opinion based on the facts they have found for themselves. Also, the source of information must be a credible source, which does not include newspapers or TV news. The best choices for fact finding research are scholarly sources such as Jimmy Carter's book and the paper by Mearsheimer and Walt. These are credible sources for information. I recently purchased and listen to the audio book version of 'Palestine Peace Not Apartheid'  by Jimmy Carter. This book was eye opening and interesting. The audio version is great because if your busy such as most people, you can listen to it as you travel. Jimmy Carter is a renowned expert on the Middle East and received a Noble Prize for his efforts of being the only president to bring Middle Eastern leaders together for peace talks and agreement in the Camp David Accord. Jimmy Carter is one of the few presidents that had the virtues of integrity, honesty, and ideals of working for the good of all, not the political agenda that most presidents hold first and foremost for the gain of themselves and their constituents. All I can say is that Jimmy Carter's book is a must read or listen! 

  I noticed that some of the opposition emails are touting that you are getting off track with the Israel issue from your normal agenda. Nothing could be farther from the truth! If you open your mind and eyes wide and look at the whole picture you will see  a direct relation in that the government is pouring billions of dollars into Israel. Now ask yourself, where is this money coming from? That's right its coming from me and you, who have no say of where the money is being used. Therefore We the People is right on target with this issue. 

  When the people of opposition to this issue finally break down and  take the time to do the research they will realize why the Arab nations hate the United States for financing terrorism upon their people.

And I would like to ask some of the people with opposing views, why would you unsubscribe to the newsletter? Would you not be open minded enough to re-examine what others have to say or have said? I have read the emails of both sides. Would you not want to do the research to back up your formulated opinion or what you have to say?  One email I read made mention of the Koran saying that Muslims must kill anybody that does not convert. I have personally not read the Koran and would doubt that they have read the Koran in its original language version. Many meanings are lost when something is converted from its original language to English or other languages. Many foreign languages have words that do not have an English conversion. This same aspect applies to the bible, which was originally written in Hebrew. If you talk to someone that can speak and read Hebrew, English, and German they will tell you that the closest translation is German. Therefore, much of the understanding of such books as the Koran and Bible are based upon interpretation and perception. Most religion is faith based, not fact based. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, but I am saying thorough research is based on many sources and one must analyze and process that data to its pertinence of the subject matter being researched. 

  We are slowly losing our freedom in this country a piece at a time and if we do not all take a stand together no matter what we believe we will surely lose everything our Forefathers fought and sacrificed for to create a free sovereign nation of the people. Perhaps we will all have to lose  all our rights and freedoms before we can realize the value of having those rights and freedoms. I should hope not! But more and more I see people acting like good government sheep. Something like 9-11 happens and people are so willing to give up their rights and freedom  for security. A prime example is air travel. You have to take your shoes off at the security check point. Why? You cannot carry on a bottle of water or other liquids. Why? When was the last time anyone can remember a plane being taken down by a bottle of water or pair of shoes? Look if someone wanted to take control of a flight could not a group of people strong arm their way through it? How about a CD or DVD? Has anyone ever broke one of these disk and discovered that it becomes a jagged shard of plastic?  I'm just saying tha