4-15-07

The following are additional e-mails in FAVOR
of WTP's questions regarding U.S./Israeli policy.

Sender identifying information has been redacted.
Letters appear as they were submitted.

Bob,

Excellent post. Attached is a couple of articles on the true Israel spoken of in the Bible. 

Alex 

“The Shocking Principle of Two Israels” 

(Taken from Chapter 3 of Exploding the Israel Deception, by Steve Wohlberg) 

Have you ever been hit so hard on the head that you started seeing double? Well, from what I have studied, the Christian world needs to get hit hard on the head with the truth of the New Testament! Then more Christians will start seeing double about the subject of Israel. According to the New Testament, there are now two Israels! The proof? Paul wrote, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Romans 9:6, emphasis added. In this chapter, we will discover that there is an Israel "according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3) and an Israel in the Spirit composed of both Jews and Gentiles who have personal faith in Jesus Christ. 

Paul wrote, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:6,7. Paul's argument is that Abraham had faith, therefore those who have faith are his children. We might call this the concept of "faith lineage." This truth is like a key that can open a lock in our heads. Once the lock is open, then we can understand the shocking principle of two Israels. 

John the Baptist understood and boldly preached the truth of "faith lineage." "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness." "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them 'Think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.'" Matthew 3:1, 7, 9, 10. 

Those Pharisees and Sadducees were part of Israel according to the flesh. They did not have faith like Abraham did, yet they thought they were his children. John the Baptist exposed this delusion. He thundered, "Don't think that!" John then laid the "axe" to the root of the trees by saying that if those men did not bear "good fruit" through faith like Abraham did, then they would be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." Verse 10. Thus natural lineage by itself is not enough. Without faith and a spiritual connection with God, those men were doomed. 

Jesus Christ taught the same truth. A certain group of Jews once said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus responded, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39. They claimed to be Abraham's children, but they had no faith. By saying, "If ye were Abraham's children," Jesus denied their claim. Christ continued, "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth. This did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father." John 8:40, 41.

They responded, "We have one Father, even God." Then "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God." "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murder from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." John 8:41, 42, 44, 47. 

What an atomic text! Here Jesus Christ Himself spoke words that blast into shivers a large portion of the prophetic theories currently held in the evangelical world. Jesus was talking to people who claimed to be Israelites, the children of Abraham. Yet they were only the Israel of the flesh! Jesus said they were not really Abraham's children at all. Because they had no faith and were following lies, their lineage actually went back to Satan, the father of lies! Soon we will separate God's truth from Satan's lie when we look at what Revelation really teaches about Israel, the 144,000, Babylon, and Armageddon. 

Jesus Christ also taught this same concept of "faith lineage" in John chapter 1. A spiritually minded Jew named Nathanael was wondering whether Jesus of Nazareth was really the Messiah. Retiring to a favorite spot under a fig tree, he prayed about the matter. Soon a friend introduced him to the Saviour. When Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, He said, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" John 1:47. 

Nathanael had a natural lineage that went back to Abraham. Yet he had more. In his spiritual life, he had gained victories over guile, which means deception. When Jesus discerned Nathanael's spiritual lineage to Abraham and Jacob, He called him "an Israelite indeed." Therefore, just as the man Jacob became a spiritual Israel, even so had this man Nathanael become an Israelite indeed. He was part of God's true spiritual Israel. 

Just as there are now two Israels, even so are there now two kinds of Jews. There are Jews in the flesh and Jews in the Spirit. In words of warning to certain Jews who were breaking the Ten Commandments, Paul wrote, "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God." "For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but it thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision [Gentiles] keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?" "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of me, but of God." Romans 2:17, 25, 26, 28, 29. 

Did you catch that? Someone who is "called a Jew" because he is a physical descendant of Abraham, and yet who lives as a lawbreaker, "is not a Jew." His "circumcision is made uncircumcision." To God, he is a Gentile. And the believing Gentile, who through faith keeps "the righteousness of the law," his uncircumcision is "counted for circumcision." Thus to God, he is a Jew. The teachings of John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Paul all agree that natural lineage is not enough. Whether or not someone is "an Israelite indeed" depends upon that person's faith and spiritual character. Paul summarized, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." Philippians 3:3. Anyone today can become one of these "Jews," even if their father was Adolf Hitler! 

These concepts of "faith lineage," Jews being counted as Gentiles and Gentiles being counted as Jews, lead us into one of the biggest issues now facing the evangelical world. This issuue is at the core of prophetic interpretation. In it we are faced with two options. One is the truth, the other a lie. One leads to heaven, the other, possibly, to hell. 

The big question is "What about the promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament?" If we conclude that those promises must be fulfilled to the Israel of the flesh, then we must conclude that Jerusalem and the modern Jewish nation will eventually become the center of the final battle of Armageddon. But if we conclude that those promises can legitimately be fulfilled to God's Israel in the Spirit, then we must restudy the book of Revelation to discover how its end-time prophecies apply to Christians. 

Paul deals with this highly explosive issue in Romans 9:2-8. His words require careful thought. With "continual sorrow" in his heart, Paul wrote about his Jewish "kinsman according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." Verses 2-4. God did make promises to Israel in the Old Testament. Yet, what if some Jews do not believe in Him? Can God fulfill His promises to an unbelieving Israel in the flesh? If not, has His Word failed? 

Paul's answer to these important questions is clear. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Verse 6. Notice that the concept of "two Israels" is Paul's assurance that God's Word will not fail! Look carefully: "They are not all Israel [the Israel of God], which are of Israel [the Jewish nation]." Thus a Jew can be of the Jewish nation, and yet not be part of the Israel of God. Now, here is the highly explosive question. To which Israel will God fulfill His promises? 

Paul continues, "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Verse 7. Since not all physical descendants of Abraham are automatically God's children, therefore His promises are for those "in Isaac." Abraham had two sons. The first was Ishmael, who was born after the flesh. The second was Isaac, who was born when Abraham had faith in God's promise (Genesis 16:1-3, 15; 21:1-3; Romans 4:18-21). In Galatians 4:22-31, Paul reveals that Ishmael represents unbelieving Jews, while Isaac represents both Jews and Gentiles who have faith! "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." Galatians 4:28. The children of promise are those who "receive the promise  of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:14. Therefore, the Israel that is "in Isaac" is the Israel of God in the Spirit! 

Paul concludes, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8, emphasis added. Here is a summary of Paul's reasoning: (1) In the Old Testament, God made promises to "the seed of Abraham;" (2) This "seed would continue "in Isaac;" (3) Isaac was born through faith; (4) Isaac represents those who have faith; (5) All who have faith "Jews and Gentiles""are counted for the seed;" (6) This seed is the "Israel" of God; (7) God will fulfill His promises to this Israel, and Therefore, "the word of God" to Israel has not been made of "none effect," even though some natural Jews do not believe! Thus we have the answer to the issue that means so much in prophetic

interpretation. The Bible is clear. God will fulfill His Old Testament promises to those "in Isaac," that is, to His Israel in the Spirit. Those who are only "the children of flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:8, emphasis added. We should not expect God to fulfill His promises to an unbelieving Israel in the flesh, unless, of course, those natural Israelites choose to believe in Jesus Christ. 

We will examine one more atomic section before we close this chapter. What about Paul's question, "Hath God cast away his people?" Romans 11:1. This verse is being quoted around the world to prove that God has not cast away the Israel of the flesh. Yet notice Paul's answer: "God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham." Notice that Paul uses himself as an example to prove that God has not "cast away his people." Who are "his people"? 

In the next three verses, Paul refers to ancient Israel's apostasy in the days of Elijah. God said to Elijah, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." Verse 4. In Elijah's time there were also two Israels. One followed Baal, while the other followed God. Then Paul made this application. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Verse 5. Just as in Elijah's time there was a faithful remnant of Israel, even so in Paul's time there was also a faithful remnant of believing Jews, who, like himself, had been saved by grace. These are God's people. It is this faithful remnant of spiritual Israel whom God has certainly not "cast away." 

Soon we will see this exact issue addressed in the book of Revelation. As in the days of Elijah, we are now in the midst of a terrible apostasy. Yet today God has His "seven thousand" who have not "bowed the knee to Baal." They are His faithful remnant, His Israel in the Spirit. Like Elijah, they will be on the side of Jesus Christ and the truth at Armageddon!  

*Read More http://www.endtimeinsights.com/IsraelinProphecy
 

“Should Christians Focus on Earthly Jerusalem?” 

When it comes to Christians and Bible prophecy, the hot spot is Jerusalem. Prophecy teachers around the world are talking about Arafat, the PLO, the Jews, the Arabs, the peace process, a rebuilt Jewish Temple, and a final Middle East war of Armageddon. Pastor John Hagee's recently published book, The Battle for Jerusalem (2001), reveals this current focus. An advertisement declares, "Pastor John Hagee explains the heart of Israel's struggle for Jerusalem and the Holy Temple Mount - and why the battle for Jerusalem should be of major concern to Christians around the world." *John Hagee Ministries (magazine), March / April 2001.            

Should it really? While Christians should love Jewish people (and everyone else), and should definitely support Israel in her struggle against terrorism, we wish to ask - Does the New Testament really say we should focus on the earthly city of Jerusalem? And do New Testament prophecies, as is so commonly taught, really swirl around this location? The answer may surprise you. First of all, there is not one single direct reference in the book of Revelation to the earthly city of Jerusalem! Look for yourself. Jesus referred to "the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down from heaven from my God" (Revelation 3:12). "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from my God" (Revelation 21:2). "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:10). Here the New Jerusalem is plainly called "the holy city," and this is where the saints of God are to live eternally.            

Revelation 11:2 also refers to "the holy city." Again, in Revelation 22:19, we read about "the holy city." And Revelation 20:9 describes a final battle at the end of the 1000 years against "the camp of the saints ... the beloved city" (20:9). Christians sometimes apply these verses to the present, earthly city of Jerusalem, but Revelation itself does not do this. As we have already seen, Revelation defines "the holy city" as the "new Jerusalem" (21:2). Thus there is no proof that the book of Revelation has even one reference to earthly Jerusalem!            

Concerning the saints of God, the New Testament says, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16). This city is clearly the New Jerusalem. Paul told his readers, "But you are come to mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22).

The most powerful New Testament section on this subject is Galatians 4:22-31. An honest and careful study of Paul's words reveals that earthly "Jerusalem which now is" (verse 25) is compared to Hagar, Ishmael, (verse 22), and the flesh (verse 23). Amazingly, it is "cast out" (verse 31) and is no longer an "heir" to the promises of God. But the "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"  (verse 26).            

Christians should love Jewish people, and should seek to thoughtfully share with them the message of Jesus their Messiah. Yet according to the New Testament, our focus should be on the New Jerusalem, rather than the present, war torn city in the Middle East.            

For further reading on this important subject, see the book, Exploding the Israel Deception, by Steve Wohlberg 

http://www.endtimeinsights.com

Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:27 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Answers to the AIPAC questions

Yes, No

The pattern is following Neiamiah.

That question fails to acknowledge that he stated that they would be re-gathered.

Yes

Yes, but we are not to interfere

Yes, the American Government should not steal from the American People and give to another, even a presumptively righteous nation, as then they are in the confederacy of the American Theives.

What are Palestinians? People in the West Bank are conquered Jordanians. Gaza was conquered Egyptians, Golan was conquered Syrians. What are Palestinians?

Yes, that is why the Arab League and their racist Muslim plan failed.

 Arabs are a threat to Israel

The Arab League.

Denied

Liberty is not resolved.

Israel has certain strength. That is why the King of Jordan invited the IDF into Jordan in the 1970’s to drive Arafat and the PLO out of his country, as they were threatening his rule.

Egypt and Saudi have received aricraft from the US including A-10 tank busters, AWACS, F-5’s (that my uncle was involved in providing for 3 years in the late 70’s) and Saudi is the only nation with the M1A2 Abrams Tank.

Liberty proved Israel is sovereign and will not look to America’s political system to ineffectively defend their nation. They are also under continual terrorist attacks and threats from suicide bombers. If we are to suggest that Israel does not need the stolen money from Americans, then they do not need the blood of our warriors as well,

The question of the value of “human life” conflicts with the legitimacy of a religion and culture that justified the murder of Israel at its birth and has active components which have not rescinded that order and intent.

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes, you will have to sell your cloak to buy a sword.

Part one Yes, part 2 is justified by the History of Heroes like Gideon, Samson, and others. SO part 2 of this question is false. Just as false as paying the IRS as unto Ceaser and acting as though one is conquered, not free.

Yes, albeit blindly.

FALSE!

True

True

True

True But not sacrifice of a whole religion, people, or Nation, except those that are cowards and kill children and the old. The Commandment to government stands since Joshua and Moses, Kill all fo the Amelkites.

Partially admitted and partially denied. Justice requires judgment.

True

Partially admitted and partially denied. Justice required a rule of law. Rule of law requires the willingness to apply judgment for the sustaining of a righteous nation.

Our legacy has been stolen from us.

We are more likely to be involved in authoring a history of ignorance.

We should not be financing any story at the cost of theft from our neighbors and countrymen.

Americans are guided by materialism. They are practically lost.

WTP should commit to a story of Justice and Liberty that condemns the wrongs of our Government making Israel a confederate in its theft and oppression of the American People.

 Thank you for sponsoring the debate.

 The alleged Philistine built credibility in his speech, then strained it.

 I count him among liars, as his home town is in the West Bank. He acheived his PHd in 1966, this means he was born on or before 1940.

 His birth certificate would not show him to be a Palestinian.  He would be a British Subject at Birth, then a subject to the Hashemite Kingdom of TransJordan upon or about the creation of Jordan by England after the War. 

If he will lie about one thing, I doubt his singular testimony about anything else.

 We must condemn our Government for its theft and opression of the American People and making Israel the iniquitous benefactor of the stolen treasure and Blood, so that both may be restored to HIS Order. 

[signed]

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 11:09 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Thanks, Bob

Dear Bob,

I commend you on taking yet another stand against tyranny.  How true it is that the subject of Israel is so touchy that to dare to examine and question the situation is enough to be labeled an 'anti-Semite' or worse.  (Of course the Palestinians are more Semitic than the European Jews in Israel today -- but don't bring that up either.)  I thank you for your courage to address one of the core issues driving the War on Terror and all the blowback associated with it.  Religious fanaticism is not good for any country.  The Golden Rule is still golden in my book -- and we best get back to it.  Fundamentalism of any kind -- Christian, Muslim, Jewish -- only serves the fear-mongering that the police state must continue to cultivate until we shake with fear of the impending Apocalypse.  If only today's Americans truly understood Liberty and the Responsibility that comes with it.  I thank you for your constant vigil in that regard.

Sincerely,

Eric

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 4:18 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: You are dead on in your interest in Israel

That country is in no danger from the Arabs. They are an annoyance but  cannot punch their way out of a paper bag.

It has nothing to do with the American Constitution and I don’t want my money sent there.

I do believe that the Jewish lobby is in control of our government and is leading us down the primrose path of destruction.

 Bill

 Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:47 AM
To: Bob Schulz
Subject: Fw: One more article by Uri Avnery

April 9, 2007
Subject: One more article by Uri Avnery
From: PLO Mission – Washington, DC

Uri Avnery  7.4.07

                                                Shalom, Shin Bet 

RECENTLY, THE CHIEF of the Shin Bet declared that the "Israeli Arabs", a fifth of Israel's population, constitute a danger to the state. 

He requested permission for the General Security Service to act against anyone who aims at changing the official designation of Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" - even if they use nothing but completely legal means. 

It follows that In the view of the chief of the Security Service, a central figure in the Israeli leadership, the task of the Shin Bet (now commonly known in Israel as Shabak) is not only to protect the state from spies and terrorists, but also from any challenge to its ideological designation, like the KGB in the former Soviet Union and the Stasi in communist East Germany. (The excellent Oscar-winning movie "The Life of the Others", now screening in Israel, shows how this worked in practice.) 

ALL THIS is reminiscent of things past. Rather naively, I had thought that they belonged to bygone days which could never return. 

Two weeks ago, the Israeli tabloid Yedioth Aharonoth published an interview with the lawyer Arieh Hadar, nicknamed Pashosh, a former chief of the interrogation department of the Shin Bet.  

Pashosh disclosed that "In the 50s, the great enemies of the Labor Party - and therefore of Issar Harel, the chief of the security services, the Shin Bet and the Mossad - were Uri Avnery and his weekly magazine, Haolam Hazeh. Avnery called the Shin Bet "the Apparatus of Darkness", and Issar was convinced that Uri Avnery would destroy the state. Avnery and his magazine were under constant surveillance. A colleague of mine earned himself quick promotion by recruiting an employee of Haolam Hazeh's printing press. Every week, this employee gave him a smuggled copy of the magazine a day before its official publication date. My colleague gave it to Issar, who brought it every week personally to Ben-Gurion."  

Pashosh added: "Issar had the Shin Bet publish a competing magazine, disguised as privately owned. The aim was to destroy Avnery." 

These revelations were not news to me. Years ago, Issar Harel himself disclosed that he regarded me as "Enemy No. 1 of the regime". It may be remembered that in those days, three bombs were laid in our editorial offices and printing plant and two employees were injured. The fingers of both my hands were broken in an (unsuccessful) attempt to kidnap me. None of these crimes was ever solved. 

In 1977, after coming to power, Menachem Begin revealed in an interview that at the end of the 50s Issar Harel approached him and told him that he had proposed to the Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, to put me in "administrative detention" - arrest without trial and without time limit. Ben-Gurion agreed, but posed a condition: that Begin, then the leader of the opposition, agree to it too, so that it could be done quietly. Begin demanded that Issar show him the evidence that I was a traitor, otherwise, he said, not only would he not agree, but he would raise hell. Issar never mentioned the matter again. 

Begin did not leave it at that. He sent me his trusted lieutenant, Yaakov Meridor, to warn me. In spite of the extreme difference of opinion between us, which found its expression many times in Knesset debates, Begin accepted me, it seems, as an Israeli patriot. 

THE QUESTION is, of course, why Ben-Gurion and the security service chief considered me "Enemy No. 1 of the regime".     

That brings us to the subject now raised again by the Shin Bet chief. 

I attacked Ben-Gurion on many subjects: the total domination of all affairs in the country by the Labor Party (then called Mapai), the corruption that was then starting to infect the ruling class, the discrimination suffered by Jewish immigrants from Oriental countries, the religious coercion, etc. 

But the pivot of this struggle was the definition of Israel as a "Jewish state". 

What is a "Jewish state"? That was never made clear. A state whose citizens are all Jewish? A state that belongs to Jews only? The "state of the Jewish people", which also belongs to millions of Jews who do not live here and are citizens of the US, Argentina and France? A state ruled by the Jewish religion? A state that expresses Jewish values (and if so, which ones?) 

Furthermore - who is a Jew, in this context? After many hesitations, the Knesset adopted the religious definition: a Jew is a person born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to the Jewish faith, and who has not adopted another religion. The contradiction between the definition of Judaism as a religion and the assertion that the Jews are a nation was solved by adopting the fiction that with us, unlike other nations, religion and nation are one and the same. 

The term "Jewish state" is nebulous. It can be interpreted in several ways. When one adds the word "democratic", it becomes an oxymoron - if a state belongs only to a part of its population it is not democratic, and if it is democratic then it cannot belong to a part of its population, even if they compose the majority. 

Instructing the Security Service - our name for the secret police - to act against those who strive by legal means to change the "Jewish state" definition - simply means to cripple Israeli democracy. It is one of the basic principles of democracy that everyone has the right to propagate his views and convince people to change the laws and the constitution, as long as only legal means are used. If he or she succeeds in convincing the majority of the citizens, the desired change comes about. 

Activating the secret police to abort this process would mean turning Israel into a police state. Not a "democracy protecting itself", but, rather, a state protecting itself from democracy. 

I HOPE that the State of Israel remains a state with a Hebrew majority, that the Hebrew language will remain its main language, that it will express the modern Hebrew society and its culture and also keep alive the Jewish tradition of generations past. (About the Arab side of the matter - see below.) 

But it must not do so by force, by way of oppression, by using the secret police and other means of compulsion. Natural processes must be allowed to work freely, whatever the results. We are not the only nation in the world in this situation.  

If Israel is an attractive country, natural increase will rise and many will knock on its doors, people who desire to join our nation. The Israeli nation - unlike the Jewish religion - can in principle absorb everyone who wants to belong to it. 

The relationship between a modern state and its citizens must be based on one consideration only: citizenship. The state belongs to all its citizens, and all of them must be equal before the law. That is what the 1948 Declaration of Independence promised: "The State of Israel… will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex." 

Some Israelis use the term "nation-state" as a pretext to oppress the Arab minority. They think about a nation-state in the spirit of the late 19th and early 20th century. In Poland, for example, where many of Israel's founders were born, the state fought against large communities of its own citizens - Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Jews and others.  

The most extreme example was the Nazi state, which was based on the idea that the individual exists only as a part of his nation, as a mere cell in the national organism. This model drowned in blood and has been besmirched for all eternity by the horrors of the Holocaust. 

Today the model that appeals to many is the American one. The American nation includes everybody who holds a US passport. A person who receives American citizenship - whether Mexican, Korean, Indian or Nigerian - at that moment joins the American nation and becomes an heir to George Washington, Abe Lincoln and Franklin D. Roosevelt.   

All modern nations are moving towards this model, each according to its own rhythm. Poland, too, now belongs to the EU, where millions of people are moving from country to country without restrictions. In most countries there now live millions of foreigners who are gradually being absorbed into the national population. Their children grow up with the local culture and the local language and study in the local schools. Without this massive reinforcement, many Western societies could not exist any more, as far as the economy and demography are concerned. 

Will Israel, which misses no opportunity to describe itself as a Western country, turn its back on this reality and adopt the model of Pakistan, a state that was founded - at the same time as Israel - on an ethnic-religious basis? 

MY IDENTITY consists of many different layers. 

I am a human being, and as a human being I am a citizen of the world, bearing responsibility for the entire planet. I am committed to humanist values, to the ecology of the globe, to freedom, peace and justice for all. I hope that in the not too distant future, these values will be guaranteed by an effective world order.  

I am a member of the Israeli nation, together with all the other people who hold an Israeli passport. Israel is my state. I want it living in peace, secure, flourishing and respected throughout the world. I want a state in which it is good to live, and of which I can be proud. 

I am a son of the Jewish people. I am an heir to Jewish tradition, much as Australians and Canadians are heirs to the Anglo-Saxon tradition. There are Jewish values in which I believe, values of justice, peace and non-violence, which are very different from the values of the settlers in Yitzhar and Tapuah. I am close to the Jews around the world, and I am very glad that Jews around the world feel close to Israel. That is an emotional matter, which should not concern the state. 

When the State of Israel really belongs, practically and officially, to all its citizens, it will be much easier for the Arabs here to decide on their status. If they choose to belong to the Israeli nation, much as Hispanics in the US belong to the American nation, that will be fine. If they prefer the status of a national minority, they should enjoy the rights of such a minority in a modern state. Either way, the Arabic language and Arab culture must be fully recognized by the state. The affinity of the Arab citizens with the Palestinian people and the Arab world must be considered just as legitimate as the affinity of the Hebrew citizens with the Jewish people throughout the world. 

THAT IS my view. I intend to advocate it by all the legal means at my disposal in the democratic state that I helped to establish. 

And if the Shin Bet does not like it, well, that is a pity. I just hope that they will not put me under administrative detention because of it.

  -----Original Message-----
 Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 6:47 AM
To: Bob Schulz
Subject: Fw: HAARETZ 8.4.07 Israel does not want peace, by Gideon Levy

 April 9, 2007  

Subject: HAARETZ 8.4.07 Israel does not want peace, by Gideon Levy

From: PLO Mission – Washington, DC 

Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:32 PM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Israel

Just wanted to drop a quick note and say that I am in support of WTPs recent stance on the US policy toward Israel.  However, I would not try to get caught up on the whole biblical debate and just provide facts.   

One thing I would like to see is more of an "outing" of who is really responsible for all this.  The men who belong to the secrest societies, the, Illuminati, freemasons etc.  The "gauradians of the secrets of the ages." The New World Order.  This is the reason all this (war, income tax, mexico etc) is taking place.   

William Cooper has already exposed all of this on his website www.hourofthetime.com.  There is a good series entitled the Truth about the ADL that everybody should read.  Take care. 

-Matt  

Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:24 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: re your stance on Aipac et al

You are right-on, Bob!  I was thrilled to see that you got the 'whole picture' ...and your  substantiation for your action is very, very good.  Geo. Washington had it right, and you are following

in his footsteps.  It's time the American people wised up as to where their tax dollars are going, year after year, and all the perks in $'s besides.  Until we get a handle on our outgo of taxpayer dollars, we will drowned in the so-called 'debt'.  There has been no peace in the Middle East since the Israeli moved in over 60 years ago.  We read on the internet, that Israeli authorities insist

there WILL BE NO PEACE  and the insistence that the Palestinians are to be annihilated/removed shows in every attack Israel makes on the imperiled Palestinians.  I am ashamed to say that

America is part of the problem.  How dare we talk 'human rights' when the Palestinians have had none for over 60 year!!!

 Good for you for sticking up for us, the citizens of this country and the taxpayers.  After all these years of charity from America, the Israeli's should be self-sufficient rather than coming back again and again to feed at the trough for more and more of OUR money.  Enough is enough!

 Keep up the good work for America!

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:45 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Thank you

I just want to say thank you for all the wonderful work you are doing. You give me hope in a world gone mad. I hope and pray that through your efforts, and those of other great Americans like you, the rest of US will wake up and do whatever it takes to return this country to the Founding Father’s design. 

To peace and freedom!

Christine

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:06 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel and the General Welfare

Dear Bob,

 Thank you for your willingness to open the dialogue regarding Israel's role in America's foreign policy. It's the key to understanding the emerging supra-national synthesis.

 The most hidden, influential Israeli in the U.S. entered the White House under Carter in 1979. Dr. Amitai Etzioni is connected to numerous programs that eliminate American's liberty, and he is the founder of the movement designed to "balance" individual rights against the "community." He was a terrorist against the British, a soldier against the Arabs in 1948, and he studied philosophy under Martin Buber, the founder of the confusing Hegelian "I v. Thou" philosophy which introduced the concept of globalized political communitarianism. Every new law that balances our rights against the common good is a communitarian law. This Israeli theory of "community" is the principle behind every law you object to.

 I hope you have the time to take your research to the next level and begin considering the ramifications of the U.S. adopting international communitarian supremacy of law. The FBI identified a top level Mossad agent in the White House who was known to them only as "Mega." In my humble American opinion, Etzioni fits the bill, perfectly.

 Sincerely,

Niki

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:21 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel

Hello! I am currently looking into your web site as an option to strengthen my voice. I would like to thank you for bringing up some very viable points concerning US anti-constitution legislation. I wish that more Christians would really read and study God's word, instead of going by what their pastor says or their Mom's and Dad's. The Word of God tells us, that in the last days (which we are no doubt in) there would be a strong delusion, that if it were possible, it would fool the very elect! I can see what John was talking about. This great Church Age! Only grounded in what they have been taught, and not studying to show themselves approved. I just want to thank you for challenging me to take a look again concerning Israel. Most people don't realize, it was the UN who confirmed Israel's Statehood. The same UN that is the promoter of the "New World Order" The same UN, that wishes to dissolve the sovereignty of the United States of America. If Christian's aren't filled with God's wisdom (instead of man's) that only comes through study of His Word and Prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit, then they will fall for this great delusion! I challenge any Christian, to step outside the box that they have been programmed to stay in, and study God's Word! Quit taking every word that comes out of the mouth of these False Prophets as Gospel and read The Gospel for yourself! You may find, that not everything you have been taught is true. And that some of these theories regarding prophecy for end times and the coming of Our Lord Jesus, that you believe, because you have been taught, are false. Some which have only been in the theological circles for less time than our country has been in existence!

 Bob, take time to study The Word for yourself. Remove from your carnal mind, all pre-taught ideas, start from scratch and ask God to give you His wisdom concerning His Word. I will continue to do the same.

 Sincerely,

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:06 AM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Israel is the problem

The people who disagree are not American citizens and if they love Israel more they should go and live there. 

90% of all the people calling themselves Jews are Jews only in the sense that they subscribe to the religion very loosely and in a very twisted way. 

Their origins are Khazaria. They are Ashkenazi Jews. 

At no time in the history of mankind did any of these white skinned people ever set foot in the area today know as Israel and therefore have absolutely no claim to any part of Palestine. 

Don't take my word for it see for yourself.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm History of the Rothschilds 

http://www.erichufschmid.net/BenjaminFreedmansSpeech16.mp3  Ex-Zionist

Benjamin Freedman speaks at the Willard Hotel, Washington D.C., in 1961 

Imagine if the Chinese converted to the Muslim religion and started calling themselves Arabs and therefore deserved a homeland in Palestine. 

That is exactly what these Kazarian, Ashkenazi, Zionist criminals have done. 

The Zionists are an Organized Crime Terrorist Organization; nothing more! 

Semitic people are dark skinned dark haired brown eyed people, and that

includes the ethnic Jews; so calling people anti-semitic is a ridiculous thing to say since the majority of the Semitic people far outnumber the real dark skinned Jews. 

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine. 

For all you wonderful supporters of Israel; see where you stand after you take a look and a listen to all of this: 

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=8667011121551944391 Eustace Mullins:

The Neo-Zionist Order.

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html Israeli Propaganda - Control

of the Media

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBJgaBe5NgM Jimmy Carter – AIPAC Lobby

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3252642434022358005&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=undefined

Rep. Paul Findley

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8785876923462708738&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=undefined

Zionist War Crimes

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/ The hidden history of Zionism

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/zionisms_master_plan.htm

Zionism’s Master Plan for World Power

http://www.rense.com/general74/controls.htm  Who really controls America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YanWfwnsVb4&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4w7oYpDxUM&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jUaaBIBDb4&mode=related&search= Fox News

Series – Israel Spying in and on the US.  Part 4

http://missilegate.com/rfz/swaz/davidcole.htm A Jew Questions the Holocaust –

examines Auschwitz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rD_rWcDRZQ&mode=related&search= Ralph Nader –

Who Owns America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG3G5nOnU20&mode=related&search= AIPAC

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3497308896275775092&hl=en Documentary

on US foreign policy. 

9/11 was beyond a shadow of a doubt an Israeli/Mossad/Zionist/Neo-Con Job! 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003&q=911+mysteries

9/11 Mysteries

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-36916906795057218 Iraq, PNAC, 9/11:

Where do all roads lead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L68t_xGEAzE&mode=related&search= Kay Griggs –

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_X2JIoa1RM&mode=related&search= Kay Griggs –

Part 2 

Bill Schultz

http://www.asylumgoons.blogspot.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:53 AM
To: Bob Schulz
Subject: US, AIPAC

Bob,

 wow!  I have read the "for and against" emails and feel compelled to write a little more to you.  

 1)  I didn't get that you were taking sides at all.  What I got was an attempt to shed light as to why the Income tax is fraudulent from a geopolitical perspective, ie that perhaps this unconditional support of Israel may be contributing to the fraud and needs to be investigated. 

2) You have obviously aroused a whole bunch of emotion from your email list and if any subject would conjure such a response it would be the middle east therefore I can only surmise that it was calculated and can only assume for good reason.

3) I was quite amazed out how many respondents were Christian.  Most Christian church type people are totally not on board with the tax honesty movement. The general consensus I have run into is that "good Christians pay income tax"  which is so repugnant to me I can only conclude they truly are sheep.

 4) Again I restate you are no stranger to controversy and therefore the subject matter is in good hands and should be addressed in the realm of the tax honesty movement if there is just a shred of evidence that foreign policy is complicit in the invalidation of the US Constitution. 

 I have read the Meisheimer/Walt documents and I don't consider the effort to be insensitive but only turning the light on to what is going on, which is a just cause.

I don't know that Israel needs 3+ billion dollars of annual support to remain viable in the Middle East.  I think that is a point that needs clarification.  I believe Islam will not peacefully coexist, and that may require this level of support, however it should be legitimate support not covert. I don't care what country is involved if a foreign policy subverts the Constitution then it needs to be stopped.  I think that US power brokers (politicians?) have a first duty to their constituents and if the Israeli Lobby is hiding the facts deliberately deceiving the US people it needs to be called to account for it.  Get it above board regardless of the degree of anti sentiment. 

 But then the US is so corrupt I am categorically an ideologist.

 Great social experiment, at least you know you have an active email list.  cp 

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:48 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israeli Aparthied

Dear Bob:

You have taken a bold (and risky) step by addressing this issue. But I believe you are doing the right thing (James 4:17), and even if it isn't rewarded in this life, it will be in the next.

It is difficult for me to fathom that Bible believing Christians, i.e., those who have actually studied Scripture, could refer to the people presently occupying that little triangle of land over there on the Mediterrenean Sea, God's "chosen people," or the "seed" of Abraham. Anyone who has read Isaiah 60,61 and 62 (or any of the Scriptures describing the prophesied kingdom), if they believe it means exactly what it says, cannot with any honesty say that what is described in these passages could have the remotest connection with the secular state that was instituted over there in 1947 with the aid of U.S. influence and money.

When God installs "true" Israel back in that land, He won't need tanks and warplanes (or U.S. money) to do it. There is no way this little socialist/fascist police state that calls itself Israel, is God's chosen nation, and therefore it and what it does should not be supported in any way, form or fashion by Bible believing Christians.

Keep up the good work! 

Mike

Pastor, Author, Bible Teacher

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:56 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: my favorite paragraph

... from your latest email update

 "Finally, we are not “anti-government.” We are firm believers in the principle that to secure men’s individual, unalienable Rights, Governments must be instituted among men. Once instituted, however, Governments must be watched by the People and held accountable to the Constitution, to prevent the servant Government from taking over the House, turning the tables on and forcing the People to do its bidding."

 Best,

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Dominic [mailto:domcass@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:18 AM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel issue

Bob,

I have read some of the emails in opposition of the stance of WE the People on US's Israeli foreign policy. All I can say is that people are to willing to formulate their opinions and positions on issues without doing thorough research on the subject matter. They take position on the opinion of others and their own beliefs. But before one takes a position, one should do the research for themselves and then formulate their own position or opinion based on the facts they have found for themselves. Also, the source of information must be a credible source, which does not include newspapers or TV news. The best choices for fact finding research are scholarly sources such as Jimmy Carter's book and the paper by Mearsheimer and Walt. These are credible sources for information. I recently purchased and listen to the audio book version of 'Palestine Peace Not Apartheid'  by Jimmy Carter. This book was eye opening and interesting. The audio version is great because if your busy such as most people, you can listen to it as you travel. Jimmy Carter is a renowned expert on the Middle East and received a Noble Prize for his efforts of being the only president to bring Middle Eastern leaders together for peace talks and agreement in the Camp David Accord. Jimmy Carter is one of the few presidents that had the virtues of integrity, honesty, and ideals of working for the good of all, not the political agenda that most presidents hold first and foremost for the gain of themselves and their constituents. All I can say is that Jimmy Carter's book is a must read or listen! 

  I noticed that some of the opposition emails are touting that you are getting off track with the Israel issue from your normal agenda. Nothing could be farther from the truth! If you open your mind and eyes wide and look at the whole picture you will see  a direct relation in that the government is pouring billions of dollars into Israel. Now ask yourself, where is this money coming from? That's right its coming from me and you, who have no say of where the money is being used. Therefore We the People is right on target with this issue. 

  When the people of opposition to this issue finally break down and  take the time to do the research they will realize why the Arab nations hate the United States for financing terrorism upon their people.

And I would like to ask some of the people with opposing views, why would you unsubscribe to the newsletter? Would you not be open minded enough to re-examine what others have to say or have said? I have read the emails of both sides. Would you not want to do the research to back up your formulated opinion or what you have to say?  One email I read made mention of the Koran saying that Muslims must kill anybody that does not convert. I have personally not read the Koran and would doubt that they have read the Koran in its original language version. Many meanings are lost when something is converted from its original language to English or other languages. Many foreign languages have words that do not have an English conversion. This same aspect applies to the bible, which was originally written in Hebrew. If you talk to someone that can speak and read Hebrew, English, and German they will tell you that the closest translation is German. Therefore, much of the understanding of such books as the Koran and Bible are based upon interpretation and perception. Most religion is faith based, not fact based. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, but I am saying thorough research is based on many sources and one must analyze and process that data to its pertinence of the subject matter being researched. 

  We are slowly losing our freedom in this country a piece at a time and if we do not all take a stand together no matter what we believe we will surely lose everything our Forefathers fought and sacrificed for to create a free sovereign nation of the people. Perhaps we will all have to lose  all our rights and freedoms before we can realize the value of having those rights and freedoms. I should hope not! But more and more I see people acting like good government sheep. Something like 9-11 happens and people are so willing to give up their rights and freedom  for security. A prime example is air travel. You have to take your shoes off at the security check point. Why? You cannot carry on a bottle of water or other liquids. Why? When was the last time anyone can remember a plane being taken down by a bottle of water or pair of shoes? Look if someone wanted to take control of a flight could not a group of people strong arm their way through it? How about a CD or DVD? Has anyone ever broke one of these disk and discovered that it becomes a jagged shard of plastic?  I'm just saying that like our Forefathers before us I am willing to take the risks to protect my rights and freedom. We do not need the government raping us of our rights and freedoms in the name of security!

  All I have to say to people that hold an opposing opinion to the Israel issue is: 'that is what this country is about, your freedom to express your opinion as you see it without being persecuted for it'. But, I also say Do not unsubscribe from We the People because of your current position, do some more research, find more facts, and revisit your thoughts on the subject. No matter what let's not be divided by our differences of opinion on different subjects, instead let us agree to disagree on some things and stick together to fight the good fight!!!!! 

 Regards,

Dominic R. Cassella

 PSS. You may print my name should you decide to post this email.  

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:38 AM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Apartheid and Manipulation

Bob, I agree completely with your contention that out policy re: Israel receiving aid through our tax dollars is repugnant to the General Welfare Clause of the U.S. Constitution.   I keep a reference copy of the Constitution on my desk for reference as well as the Bible and other religious texts, and have watched the attached links in the article, so I think I have some grasp of the issue. I wonder though, how many of those who disagree actually took the time to research the points that made on this complicated and controversial issue. I did notice that most in the disagreement section of the replies simply said "remove me from your list" rather than offer any real rebuttal.

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:39 AM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: comments 

First off, I would like to say I am still behind "WTP.org". It seems a lot of people do not like this new issue being raised, with valid reason. 

I just wanted to make sure that you know: If you had you're way, and if Christians are also correct, this would be prophecy fulfilled, and thus the beginning of the end would start  :) 

I am a Christian, but I believe in separation of church and state, and above all Constitutional law. For a Christian to imply we have any say in when the rapture begins is blasphemous. If God wanted Israel to stand, something would miraculously take the US's place in assuring its sovereignty if we were to withdraw our unlawful support. Simple as that. 

In their perspective, (and covertly ours), it is a Holy War. I cannot find any other explanation for our support of "The Holy Land" through thick and thin without involving religious views. This is not acceptable according to any religion. We must treat foreign policy separate from our religious views. And I am scared to say, what if the US isn't? 

PS: I do agree that this is the main cause of the police state or the "National Security State". And I don't think most politicians oppose this degrading of liberty either.

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:54 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject:

I agree we need to cut our support of Israel. They use the money to suppress the Palestinian people and detain them in what amounts to concentration camps. They also killed American sailors by attacking our ship the USS Liberty for which they received no retaliation or investigation. Thanks.

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:26 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: IRS, ADL, AIPAC

Dear Bob:

Now, I have read both the "agree" and "not agree" email messages in response to the State of Israel.

Time to wake up Americans.

I am a person whose ancestor's work was completely misused by those who have convinced the many that the few are chosen by a God that none of us would even begin to invite into our home, let alone to break bread with - a God that destroys whichever life it creates by allowing only certain human beings to decide who, what, when and where - I am shocked at the "not agree" email responses.

We are in the 21st Century and the information stream is available to all who would be curious enough to know the true teachings of religions - the Zionists have succeeded in convincing the brains of far too many that a very wicked God is in control and we have no choice but to be sacrificed to the evil of propaganda - created, controlled and distributed not by God, but by man alone.

My mother's second cousin, my cousin once removed was Karl Marx.  He did not write the works he did to allow the few to enslave the many.  No, the work he created was for the many to be free of the few who believed then, as they do now, that the centuries of ruling elite were considered more special.  He did not believe in "Jew-ism" and this was because he was well aware of the "Tribes of Israel."

Why should the Israel tribes be more special than the non-Israel?

In the ancient Cradle of Civilization, there were predators, just as today, and it has always been the predators of humanity who have decided that the Christ, his spirit, and his followers, were not as special as the predators.  The predators do not accept any religion that is not created by them for their own agenda.  This hatred of religions by the predators includes the Muslim tradition.

Zionists and Israel Jews do NOT follow Jesus Christ nor his teachings.  The predators of ancient times have always used religion to yoke the many, and in this time they are far stronger in this endeavor because they have the WORLD MEDIA.

Those who would not use their own God given brains to think through the First Commandment:  "Thou Shalt Not Kill" are NOT followers of Jesus Christ, but indeed, simply slaves of hell because that's what the predators choose for those who don't think.

Jesus sat outside the Temple and braided a bullwhip to drive the "money changers" from the Holy Shrine of God.

How hard is it for the "Christians" in "America" to understand that they are violating this in supporting the Zionist agenda of "full spectrum dominance!"  The Zionists are the money changers and not the Children of Israel, the Chosen People of God.  There is no such nonsense.

All human beings are the chosen people of God, ask God about this and not some other human - the truth shall set us free.

Why don't the "not agree" people who sent you emails go and do their homework - conduct interviews with every person who has the power to continue using Israel as a power broker to destroy the Middle East for the purpose of the New World Order, and find out just how much they believe in the teachings of Jesus.  For example, Henry Kissinger.

Then and only then can they actually form an opinion.  Interview Paul Wolfowitz of the World Bank and his commitment to Jesus.  Don't allow any deviation from the teachings of Jesus:  "Ye shall know them by their fruits."  In other words, just a "yes I love Jesus Christ" or "Yes, I am a follower of Christ" - shall NOT suffice.  A thorough investigative background search of Paul's practices for his entire POLITICAL life demonstrating he has been a genuine Child of God, following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, must be proven as a factual paper trail of indisputable evidence to support his love of God and the teachings of Jesus.

Again - Thank God for We the People Foundation.

I am the humble servant, now pledged to a Foundation that "shouts it from the mountain top"

Thank you again and again,

Roberta  

-----Original Message-----
From: RIEMER990@aol.com [mailto:RIEMER990@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:38 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: US., Israel and AIPAC : "No Thank You"

I agree with your take on the Scriptures dealing with the State of Israel today.  I am really appalled by the emails that I read concerning your take on Israel. It seems so many in the Church today have misunderstood the Scriptures dealing with this subject. 

 The Jews are not God's people.  They can be if they repent.  And if they repent they become part of the Church, the Bride of Christ.  Christians (the Church), are now God's people.  Never again will there be a reason or a need for a restored nation of Israel.  There is no New Testament Scripture dealing with a restoration of the nation of Israel, only its destruction.  (Matt. 21:43; 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 19:42-44, 21:20-24), If there was to be a restoration of the Nation of Israel, why didn't the greatest prophet of all, Jesus, say one word about it? 

The nation of Israel today is not the nation of God.  These people are not true Jews!  A true Jew does not constitute a "blood line,"  "he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart..."(Romans 2:28,29; 8:17; 9:7; Gal 3:7,29).  A true Jew is someone who does the work of God. " Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:29). A true Jew believes in Jesus. Jesus told the Jews of his day, the descendants of Abraham, the ones who could trace their lineage back to Abraham, that they were of their father the devil (John 8:44). Why? Because they did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. So they were not the sons of Abraham!

 There is so much more I could say about this from the Scriptures.  If you want to know more, I have written a book that spends a few chapters dealing with this issue.  The book is titled "IT WAS AT HAND  A Biblical Response To Dispensationalism" by Michael E. Riemer  If you want to read it, just give me the address to mail it and I will send you a copy free of charge. Or you can order it through almost any book store. 

If you post this email on your sight, you may leave my email address, for I would love to defend your position on this issue.

 One more point. Yes, the Bible does say pray for the peace of Israel.  Maybe Jesus should have read that verse. The Bible also says to offer animal sacrifices. Why do so many insist on taking verses in the Bible out of context?

 Yours in Christ,

 Michael Earl Riemer

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:40 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: So-Called "Anti-Semitic" Statement

Hi Bob,

 Thanks for all of the e-mails and for keeping all of us concerned Americans up to speed on what's happening.  I couldn't agree more with your position in the e-mail.  I know you're not an anti-semite, neither am I.  In fact, I owe the semitic jewish people everything. Otherwise, I would have no hope and neither would anyone else for that matter. 

 You know, I read some of the dissenting comments you included regarding the stance against the root of our problem.  I have to say that these knee-jerk responses to a thoughtfully presented argument is typical of these neo-cons and self-deluded "Christians."  As a Bible-believing, born-again member of God's family, having been adopted as a son as outlined by

Paul, I have to say that they are all WRONG.  You see, I don't ascribe to the fictitious notion that God needs us to help him bring about the Millennium.  So many obtuse evangelicals promulgate this misinterpretation of Scripture.  I'm very glad that you're making a stand against the actual root of all of our troubles.  These ignorant people, who probably never even provided contributions to WTP, should be challenged, to stretch the intellectual envelope, to push them out of their comfort zone. 

 These deceived Christians need to be aware of the scriptural mandate for the real jewish people to return.  God unequivocally outlined the conditions under which the real jewish people may return to the land promised by God.  However, the current "State of Israel" is not founded on any of them.  In contrast, it's founded on murder, assassinations, terrorism, extortion, and theft.  I hardly think that God will bless this corrupt and psychologically unstable people.  I say because the public needs to be aware that the crowd making all of the trouble are NOT semitic jews.  These people are NOT the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Rather, they a turkic-mongoloid race from the Crimean region of southern Russia known as the Khazars.  (Several jewish authors have researched this and have written very enlightening books on the subject.)  They are IMPOSTER jews who have claimed/stolen the name of the real jewish people for their own benefit.  Even among "jewish" groups they know this and yet, they expect the "non-jew" to pay homage to them whenever they drag out the old "victim" card. 

 The people who are in power in Israel (i.e., Zionists) are the same people who are manipulating Bush and Congress and who deceived us into the Iraqi bloodbath with their so-called "intelligence" lies.  One responder said that Israel is no threat and then compared its population with that of the Middle East.  This foolish individual obviously intends to obfuscate the reality of the situation.  We all know that the Khazar-controlled U.S. Government would pounce on anyone that threatened Israel militarily.  Besides, Israel would simply detonate one of its nuclear warheads over its enemy's capital city.  Yes, we all know that Israel has nuclear weapons.  Even the Israeli leadership occasionally makes offhand statements to that fact.  Just because Israel has relied on its traditional tactics of subterfuge certainly doesn't mean they're not ready and willing to push the button, as it were.  Your statement of Israel co-mingling funds is right on the mark.  They DO NOT need another dollar from us.  We are helping to pay for their insatiable desire for land and genocide worse than Himmler's SS.  The Israeli Minister of the Treasury recently made an offhand remark that Israel doesn't need the $2 billion U.S. foreign aid, but they'll certainly accept it.  We are continually being played for fools and yet, what is our leadership doing about it?  Nothing.  Not only nothing, but they're in bed with them.  How did such a small group, particularly of Communist/Zionist (i.e., "Neo-Conservatives") manipulators get so much power anyway?  

 Sorry - I'll get off my soapbox...  I'm just sick and tired of uninformed people, especially those who think they're informed, telling me that Israel has a right to the land and that we must blindly support it in everything it does.  It's funny that these same people will turn around and proclaim their innocence when the U.S. finally pays the highest price for their complicity in our ultimate destruction if we don't take our nation back. 

 Paul

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 1:26 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: ISRAEL LOBBY

I am sure if you venture into the territory of the Israel Lobby or

anything to do with Israel, you will face the firing squad! I fully

agree with everything you say regarding Israel however you are treading

on dangerous ground when you question anything regarding Israel. I give

you a lot of credit for your courage. Good Job!

Lee 

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 2:18 PM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Israel 

Dear Sirs, 

My first email was a bit rushed. You are correct as far as I am concerned in the fact that the US policy in the middle east is not in our best interest. However the US policy here at home is also not in the best interest of individual freedom and the God given rights of WE the People either. 

This latest revelation and evaluation albeit in spirit is correct in my opinion it is irrelevant. If we cannot clean up our house at home I see no chance of changing directions on affairs outside. Our selected officials must be made to realize that we, not them are in charge. 

United we stand. Regardless of the facts and the truth you have presented concerning current policy this issue has by the looks of things divided our house. A house divide will surely fall. I know you know who said that. He never lied. 

Perhaps we need to have as many people on board with a cohesive issue or issues and at least prevail on these issues as to divide ourselves on some issue that we have little to no chance of making a difference on anyway. 

Here we are involved in 4 main issues at petition with what response from our servants to date? I will back We the People when they are in the right. I say again you are right about this issue. 

My question is how does this serve to help our goals? If our goal is to divide and conquer then I am sure we can come up with other equally controversial issues to present to the remaining membership. 

Right or wrong how much has the loss of some of our meager support benefited our overall cause? I must agree with your assessment on the constitutionality of this foreign policy issue. However it is my humble opinion that at this time it serves no purpose greater than to divide our membership and erode much needed support from our base. 

I am not being critical here. I am trying to be a realist. In truth the foreign policy of the US has been wrong headed and without God's guidance for decades. Were this not the case we wouldn't be in the mess we are as of today. That being said We the People cannot hope to correct years of misdirection abroad until first we overcome the years of misdirection at home. 

Do as you wish but common sense tells me I'd rather be in a struggle for liberty where the cause is backed by as many like minded freedom fighters as I could muster through a common unifying cause. 

United we stand, divided we fall. Now who said that?

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:46 PM

To: bob@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Mid-East Policy vs. the U.S. Constitution 

Dear Bob, 

I wrote two emails to the info address. The first in hast and the second a change of attitude of sorts. This one is to you personally. I agree with your assessment. I also think Jimmy Carter is misguided at best and a moron at worst. I had to through that in there. I have read the agree and the disagree emails posted on the site. Once again if all the ifs that have been presented are correct then yes indeed the current policy is unconstitutional. 

The ifs I refer to are taken from the following quote. 

"If Palestinians are being oppressed and their society is being destroyed by Israel, and if Palestinians and empathetic Arabs and Muslims in surrounding countries are now directing their anger and hostilities against America because our financial aid to Israel is paying for the destruction of the Palestinian society, and if these hostile acts by Arabs and Muslims against America are the underlying cause of the domestic "War on Terror" in America, and if the "War on Terror" in America is the proximate cause of the developing Police State (euphemistically called the National Security State) in America, and if the growing Police State is eroding the individual Rights, protected Freedoms and cherished Liberties of the People, then it would be undeniable that U.S. foreign policy regarding Israel is not in our national interest and is not serving the general welfare of all Americans." 

May I suggest that if another set of ifs is presented then a totally

different conclusion may be extrapolated. That being said, and acknowledging  you are 100% correct given the information you are working from, the following is what I have gleaned from this discussion. At least the important part in my humble opinion. The following are quotes and only an observation. 

"Please remove me from your list." 

"If you keep up along the vein you have been speaking I will remove my

name from your newsletter list." 

"Remove me from your list." 

"If you get divided between all these different issues you won't win any of them." 

"This is a distraction that will dilute our original intent and  lose much needed support as well. I beg of you to cease." 

"this organization has lost its original important focus which was to expose the income tax fraud and  the irs crooks for who they are."

"I want nothing more to do with you.Please remove my name from your emailing list."

"But why ask for that battle?" 

"Let the Lord deal with Israel's "misconduct," and let WTP find other

misdoings of our government to criticize.  There are many to choose from.

If not, I fear your organization will not stand." 

"May God grant us the ability to use wisdom in sticking to the issues of

our cause."  "I can no longer support you. Take me off your email list." 

"I’ll have to go elsewhere with my money and support to fight that battle." 

"I’m moving on and putting your organization behind me." 

"May God mercifully redirect your steps back onto the path He laid before your feet," 

Bob I stand in your corner. Correct me if I'm wrong but in the event we

actually force our servant government to stop the existing unlawful

collection of revenues then the funding of misguided foreign policy will take care of itself. Also please correct me if I am mistaken but how much of a chance will a petition of this matter stand to succeed if our existing petitions are ignored or remain unresolved? I would say zero. 

 The above quotes are a sort of petition from some of our members. I know that given the information you refer to that you are right. Since religion has been introduced I would like bring up what Jesus said about a house divided. "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." None the less you are right. 

When our founding fathers petitioned the king they stayed focused. The

only foreign policy issues they asserted were those concerning the

colonies. I am sure there were many other foreign policy issues to

petition but they steered clear of them for a reason I suppose. Back then

they had a rally cry, "United we stand, divided we fall." 

Bob I love you for what you have done and are doing. I wish I had Bill

Gates money and you would have billions at your disposal. The way I see

things is this is an issue that serves no purpose at this time other than to divide our meager base. Do as you wish I still support our efforts. I see this also as a possible negative given the ignorance of most Americans as a way for the powers that be to use this against GiveMeLiberty.org. Just a thought. 

In the war of aggression between the states the South won 75% of the battles but lost the war. How many battles have we won? We very well may

need only win one and win the entire war. I hope we choose carefully our battles. I mean there is the right to contract vs. getting a permit. The right to unrestricted free travel on our public highways without having to obtain a permit (license), right to bear only the arms our servants say we can bear, freedom of religion free from fear of offending, and I can go on and on and on. 

This is just my opinion Bob. We have already engaged in one mighty battle. Our original 4 petitions. To date I see no victory although it may be forth coming. We need as much support as we can get on this front alone. I would hope that being right about this Israel thing is not so important as to divide us. Is being right more important than everything? 

During the battle of Gettysburg General Lee was convinced he was right in keeping his divisions in Washington as opposed to sending reinforcements to Gettysburg. To this day I am sure he was right because of his military skill and leadership abilities. I have to wonder sometimes though if he had of listened to what his ground troops were saying if the South would have won that war? I think as a matter of fact later he admitted he was wrong but of course then it was too late. 

 Well thanks for all you have done and continue to do. I just felt

compelled to share with you from my heart. Bob I am not saying you are

wrong. I think you are right. The above quotes speak for themselves. 

 Bob you are We the Peoples General Lee. You are the one giving the

marching orders. I do not envy you this responsibility. It is up to you

to keep us banded together. My prayers are with you, us your followers

and our cause.

United we stand, divided we fall!

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:46 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel

I am so glad that you have begun to help show the world, especially sleeping Americans,  the evil of Israel and the evil and illegal actions of our government.  You will continue to get a lot of flak on this, because Israel has more power in DC than we do and people buy whatever they hear from them.  Keep it up and thanks so much.

 Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:47 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel Lobby

I could not agree with you more.  The Israel Lobby wields more influence and power over  US Congress than We The People.  WHAT A SHAME!  WHAT A SHAME!  Please, State’s Citizens, Please wake up and VOTE! 

Bill

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 5:50 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: US Foreign Policy and American Policy

We The People Foundation,

      Sirs;  I have been a member for only a year or two, and have enjoyed completely the many articles and deep thought provoking questions that you have published. I do regret that I have been unable to contribute in various ways as I would have liked.

              I have read your more recent articles concerning the Israeli Lobby and our current US foreign policy issues, and even though I have not as yet read the writings of former President Carter and the others, so as to ascertain the veracity of their statements and opinions, I have read the e-mails of those that agree and disagree with your articles.

             Having been a Biblical student and amateur history student for many years, I am deeply saddened by the various writers of their misunderstanding and misconceptions of The Holy Bible, other religions (any dictionary rendering as man made doctrines, not God''s), and man's world history. It appears that those individuals who quote and live by The Old Testament teachings, do not understand that God's Grace was given to the individual on a conditional basis, and that the Old Testament is a historical account and narrative. To live and worship according to the Old Testament, the individual is rejecting God's Love and Grace that He poured out to mankind through the sacrifice made by God's only Son. God made that very clear through His Word in the New Testament.

            As one of the other writers made clear, from a historical background, there may be a few individuals in the state of Israel, who can trace their ancestry back to one of the true tribes of Israel or Jerusalem, but for the biggest part, the majorities are not true Israelites. Anyway, if one was to read and understand the books of Daniel, John, and Revelations, they would know that the 1,000 year rule of Satan on the earth will be from Jerusalem.

           On regards to the other writers statements that WTP is trying to cover too many areas and becoming divided. One should stop and think and try to see the full picture, and not just a few snapshots. All the current petitions and all the questions being currently asked, have very much to do with the full extent of the current corruption and incompetence that has saturated Washington, DC and unfortunately, all levels of government and the judicial clear down to the local arena. I hate to say this, but if a person is that blind to what is happening, (willingly or not), then accordingly the truth is that individual is a slave and prefers to remain a slave.

          In conclusion, all that I can say is, WTP keep up the good work, and hopefully more people will throw off the binders that are covering their eyes and really see what is happening.    

Floyd

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:16 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel Lobby & U.S. Foreign Policy:

To my Brothers and Sisters in Liberty:

I would beg all who have expressed their displeasure with WTP’s statement regarding foreign policy to consider the following:

1. I am a born-again Christian who has also read (and believes) Ezekiel’s prophecy regarding the re-creation of the State of Israel; and of God’s ominous warnings aimed at those who would be enemies of His chosen people. I am not, however, convinced that Almighty God would have used—of all the possible means available to Him—the UN to bring His people back to their homeland.

2. As much as I love and admire the Jewish people, I believe our direct involvement in the Mid-East and it’s many political facets has created yet another deep and highly contentious division among our people. Israel has proven many times over that they are fully capable of taking care of themselves; and I fail to see where leaving them to their own devices can somehow be construed as being anti-Israeli.

3. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ tells me to love my enemies; and, thus, I have concluded (and truly believe) that the only way one can defeat hate, injustice, war, etc....is by loving our world neighbors as much as we love ourselves; and to do our utmost to develop a foreign policy that reflects same.

4. I strongly encourage everyone to read George Washington’s Farewell Address; wherein he cautions our young republic from entering into entangling alliances; citing (nay, predicting) the divisiveness and internal strife that would surely follow.

In conclusion, it is imperative—that in all matters relating to the process of governance—that we strictly adhere to the wise, forthright and righteous limitations imposed upon said process by The Constitution; and I, for one, applaud WTP in their efforts to do just that.

Your brother in Christ . . .

Vince

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:16 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject:

Hi Bob, 

This is my first correspondence to you. First of all I want to thank you for your efforts in educating the people of our constitutional rights and applaud WTP for taking the steps to hold our government accountable to the constitution. I have only been a follower of WTP for 1.5 yrs, and regretfully have not been able to supply financial support (I’m a financially struggling graduate student), but plan to in the future, once I graduate. I became aware of your group after reading the constitution for the first time, which I am embarrassed to say was two years ago. The particular website (forgot address) in which I read the constitution had a link to your site. However, before learning of your group I had been aware of the possible unconstitutionality of the income tax law, I had attended a few meetings in which the speaker of the meeting would discuss how the income tax and the IRS were unconstitutional, however they only gave bits of information and in order to get you out of the income tax system legally they required a small fee of $2000 (sarcastic emphasis), this I had a problem with, and didn’t pursue the issue any further until the day I read the constitution. Upon reading the constitution it became very apparent that the income tax law is unconstitutional. I further want to say that I agree with WTP in its efforts and approaches in peacefully asking our government to address our grievances, employing our first amendment right. Unfortunately, most Americans, such as I until recently, have never read or studied the Constitution (which should be a mandatory subject taught in our high schools) or are willing to defend it against our own government. The mentality of most the people that I discuss this issue with is “what can I do about it, if I don’t pay my taxes I will go to jail” or “there isn’t anything I can do about it” and worse yet “it’s unpatriotic not to pay your taxes”. Furthermore, people have this belief that the country would fall apart financially if the government didn’t collect income taxes. These comments and beliefs tend to irritate me and I reply that the government collects more than enough money to run the country through other forms of taxation (i.e. sales, property, excise etc.) and that there is something they can do; 1). Read the constitution, 2). Join WTP or at least get on the email list to educate yourself, 3). It’s unpatriotic to pay the income tax, since it is a violation of our Constitution, 4). Quit paying the income tax, by checking the exempt box on the W4 form and not filing a 1040. If every American did this, then WTP would surely get an answer from our government. I am open to any suggestions you may have on how to respond to these types of comments.

I would like to comment on the new issue at hand the US/Israeli policy. I read all the email responses (Agree and Not Agree) and feel that both groups make good points. I feel that WTP should remain fully focused on the original four petitions until those have been resolved and that the Israel issue can cause conflict within the support of members of WTP, because of religious contentions. However, I also believe that the US should not give financial support to any foreign country and have our military stationed in foreign countries. When did it become USA’s job to financially support and police the world? Especially when there are so many problems in the USA, such as; 1). Most Americans live at or just above poverty, 2). The many homeless, 3). Teachers are underpaid; therefore our youth are getting a substandard education, 4). Every American should they want, be able to get a college education without having to accrue thousands of dollars in student loan debt, 5). Universal health care should be provided to every American, no one should have to die because they couldn’t afford the necessary medical procedure or medications. These are only a few of the problems that the tax payers’ money given to foreign countries could and should support. I know that some would say it is necessary to help other countries in need, for their economic development or for security from oppressive governments and invading dictators. But again I ask why it is the financial responsibility of the American people. Our forefathers fought against the oppression of the English monarchy to become free without any substantial support from foreign countries, and since then our military has ensured our freedom. Back to the Israeli conflict and some of the comments in the email responses pertaining to the religious card. It appears that some of the members of WTP support Israel solely on the basis of religious beliefs, which is their right. However, I will only stand behind governmental policies that are based solely on what is constitutionally right for all the American people and not based on religious beliefs. I will support WTP in fighting any issue/policy that is against our constitution, however I do believe that WTP should concentrate most of its resources and time on the first 4 petitions, fight one battle at a time, spreading ourselves too thin can lead to no victories. I do want to say that I agree for the most part that the US support for Israel has lead to many Arabs dislike of Americans, thereby perpetuating terrorism. Further suggesting that the US should not support either side. Let them fight their own battles. The last comment I have is on the invasion followed by oppressive governmental rule on indigenous people, is that most Americans forget about the holocaust and oppression of the first Americans the Native Americans. Have they really gained back the land that was taken from them?  

Thank you for listening,

Tracy

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:56 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

While all that you have said may be true concerning U.S. and the Israel lobby, the waters have been indeed muddied concerning our tax protest movement. We will certainly have no less opponents to our petition process hereafter; and I doubt much increase in proponents.

Yet, I agree that there is a greater cause for the deviation; but that cause is multifaceted and convoluted with intrigue and subterfuge. It will be a nightmare to navigate and expect our undereducated, unaware and apathetic general U.S. population to follow. 

Better that we concentrate on rectifying our fraudulent tax system (which most have no affinity) and allow the issue of Apartheid to be confronted by another organization apart from We The People. 

However, I suspect that the damage has already been done and maybe irreparable. 

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:12 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: US support of Israel

Hi Bob and all at WTP,

 I believe I truly have an insight into the issue of US support of Israel that most do not.

I studied in Cairo and Israel when I was in college back in 1996. I studied specifically the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. I am a devoted protestant Christian and have no bias toward the Jewish faith, Jesus was a Jew. Please let me point out some, very relevant, specifics that, I believe, have not been addressed as of yet. 

 1. The current state of Israel, as a manifestation of Zionism, is a purely SECULAR state. Zionism, the belief that the Jews should have an exclusive homeland, is purely SECULAR in its conception, philosophy, and application. The vast majority of Jews in Israel at this time are in fact atheists, unless a mass Judaic revival has happened that I am unaware of.

The Bible has no place in the politics of Israel, if it did we could apply these Old Testament verses as a righteous rebuke to the modern state of Israel:

 “You shall not taunt a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.  You shall not cause pain to any widow or orphan.” (Ex. 22:20-21)

 “And when a stranger resides among you in your Land, you shall not taunt him. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, because you were strangers in the land of Egypt; I am HaShem your God.” (Lev. 19:33-34)

 2. Many countries receive monetary aid from the US. But the aid given to most, if not all, countries is of a humanitarian nature EXCEPT Israel which receives aid intended for MILITARY purposes. This changes the whole issue regarding US aid to the international community regarding Israel.

 To close I have to say that in my time studying in Israel I learned some cold facts. Israel, as a government is very similar to the German government 60+ years ago. I heard nothing from Israelis but attempts at justification for crimes against the Palestinian humanity. I talked with many Palestians, including the most oppressed who were Christian Palestinians, and I heard sincere, heartfelt stories of torment, suffering, sacrifice, theft, rape and torture at the hands of Israelis and the Israeli government. It is unjustifiable and certainly leaves the US' hand bloodied for its' collaboration/facilitation of these crimes.

 To those who blindly support Israel: Do you blindly obey the US government ? Do you blindly file income tax returns ? The same brainwashing that had most of filing in the past is similar to the "support the children of Israel" dogma I read in the "not agree" section and have been combating this erroneous view for years.

 Keep up the fight Bob and WTP,

 Respectfully

Dean

Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:29 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject:

To who has written the article U.S, Israel, IPAC, Palestine.  This is the best written piece I have read in a very long time.  Very well done!!!

Scott

Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 4:58 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Biblical Support of Israel

Mr. Schulz:  

I would like you to consider the following presentation about Israel. Please go to this website 

http://www.hopevideo.com/audio_with_david_asscherick.htm 

and download #26, "All Eyes on Israel." 

I feel that it presents a very honest view of who today's "Jews" are. 

Respectfully,

Jason

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 7:48 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: We are Israel

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:26 PM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: connecting the dots "WZO" 

Chaim Weizmann,

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0276-1114(199210)12%3A3%3C225%3ACWSWAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-3

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:27 PM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: clearly it's always been about WZO 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_de_Rothschild 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Weizmann

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 12:27 PM

To: info@givemeliberty.org

Subject: inside the heads of the rulers of the NWO 

http://www.chalav.org/?module=displaystory&story_id=656&format=html

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:27 AM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel Lobby - April 10 Commentary

In reading the pro and con e-mails, I believe that many of the con e-mail writers were not careful readers.  It struck me that many read "U.S., Israel, AIPAC: "No, Thank You" Palestine: "Yes, Thank You" was in some way a WTP rejection of Israel and endorsement of Palestine.  We the People should be more careful before we permit our personal biases or beliefs to color our discourse, lest we totally lose are ability to have discourse.

 Hank

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:27 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel Lobby & U.S. Foreign Policy: Apartheid and Manipulation

Dear Bob,

              I'm glad to see your group finally starting to figure out what the

problem is. Some people have known for years but get very little attention.

I wonder why? I do know the history of going after the Israeli lobby.

Once you do this, you are basically DOOMED. Good luck. 

                                      Tom C.

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:15 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject:

Dear Bob:

Regarding your 4-10-07 WTP message and after reading the 'agree and disagree' writings, there is no doubt that our people are woefully ignorant of Scriptural truth.  Some profess to be Christians but they are sadly misinformed about who the real Israel is. " The name "Israel" appears over 2500 times in the Bible and since it is to the Israelites that "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law......and the promises", (Romans 9:4) it would be well for Christians to know as much about these people as we can.  To remain ignorant of their true identity and as to their true place in Bible prophecy and history is well pleasing to forces of Satan and darkness, but it does not please our Lord Jesus Christ."   This is from "Suppose We are Israel, Does it Make a Difference?" a small tract isssued by Christ's Gospel Fellowship in Spokane, WN.  This is a very good place to begin in order to understand Biblical Israel and who the imposters are.  Until Christians dust off their shelved Bibles and read with understanding, there will never be any change in all the problems connected with the pseudo mini-state of 'israel'.  Some knowledge of how the Zionists claimed Palestinian land (and still are) is found in the book by the former U.S. congressman Paul Findley, "Deliberate Deceptions." 

It appears that you are in a good position to bring forth the truth, but as always it will probably only bring more condemnation and accusations your way if you decide that it's worth it.  If you would like to have the above mentioned four-page tract, I would be happy to send it.  And unlike those that for various uninformed reasons want to unsubscribe, I don't!  Please keep up your needful work.....you are indeed appreciated.  Thank  you.

 Sincerely,  [signed]

Subject: Response to the April 10th Article

Hi Bob and Company.

I responded to the prior list of questions you asked.

 I read the recent article and see that my point regarding the Citizenship of Birth of the Jordanian (allegedly Palestinian) Dr. who addressed us did not

I have endeavored to stay on point to your questons without trying to move focus off of your questuons, and bringing up the fact that Congress has given millions to the PA to fund programs like their Seseme Street Child Jihad TV show, the evidence I possess of formerly U.S. Service Rifles being comingled with arms for a Million Men that was removed out of an 8 mile deep cave in souther Lebanon in 1980, and the actions taken by IDF to suppress protests by Orthodox Jews and groups like Women in Green. 

Clearly, the US is arming both sides of conflict. That brings a biblical curse upon this land.

 Clearly, the enrichment of Israel due to the theft and terrorism wrought upon Americans by the IRS makes Israel the same kind of G-Dless government as our own.

 Clearly, Israel had every reason to know that War was again coming in 1968, terrorist Egyptians were operating out of Gaza, Syria was overtly shelling Gallalee, and Jordan placed its army under the Command of the Soviet Backed Egyptians, 

Clearly, Israel decimated the crew of the USS Liberty, just like our Friend IRaq practically blew the USS Stark in half with theur French Mirage Jets firing Exocet Missiles.

 Clearly, Israel is not interested in letting America be its defender, and we should not be its defender if we are to avoid foregin entaglements.

 Clearly, Israel will continue to be active in its Intelligence operations in the US and if it deems necessary, will take covert actions as it deems fit even within the US, even against US individuals.

 Clearly, before the 1968 War, the Dr. who addressed us last Month was a Jordanian, and the town he lived in was in Jordan.

 Clearly, conquered people lose rights. Thi is why Christians do not understand the Pay unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's.

 Clearly, when terrorists are of a particular persuasion and culture, profiling becomes inherent in the equation of law enforcment efforts to avert terroristic acts.

 Clearly, the Israel question is the worst case scenario of forewarned "foreign entanglements."  For that it deserves some scrutiny.

 Clearly, the Dr. strained credulity, and thus his voice brought no valid testimony.

 Clearly, a couple of weeks before our conference, the President of Israel had to stand down from his office for a period of tme, raising an ARAB to that office in that interim, thus the claim of Apartied is false and the Dr. is a liar to claim otherwise.

Clearly, ARABS serve in the Israeli Army. Their service is not compulsory as it is to the Jews.

 Clearly, the failure of Israel and the Lobby to appear reveals an equal level of dishonesty, and the tactic of not appearing was so that the Dr. alone would strain his credibility. That is damaging enough, so they needed no words to be said to make that happen..

 Clearly, Israel will do what is best for Israel.

 We should do what is best for Israel, which means stay out of pressuring land for peace, and do not allow Israel to continue to hold an unrighteous position of enrichment upon the opression and destruction of American Citizens at the hands of the IRS and the DOJ.

 Israel will thrive, and wants us out of its business.  And they should not receive American Blood money.

 International Aid reform is a Consitutional Issue.

 I will support continued discussion and exchange on this matter, and am glad that WTP had the fortitude to breech the subject.

 Yet, as you can see, it is nether Carter, nor the Professors, nor the guile of that Dr. that leads me to my points of support.  But the facts of Israel's soverignty, the prior sovereignty of Gaza, Golan, and West Bank held by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria respectively, the fact that there were no such people as Palestinian's, and our governemtn claiming to be Israel's friend while arming its terrorist enemies which raises the facts and true moral issue.

 Such duplicity brings upon US a biblibal curse.

 I look forward to seeing any challenges to my statements of fact, which undermine the justification of certain parties.

 [signed]

Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 3:30 PM

To: bob@givemeliberty.org

Subject: My $0.02 on Israel issue

Hi Bob ... 

I've been reading the various e-mails that have come out against your

proposal to *discuss* the Israel / Palestine problem in the middle east, and our "government's" role in it.  First, I find nothing in this that is "anti-Israel" or "Jew hating" about discussing the issue ... in fact, I would say it is pro-Israel.  If there is something that we or our government is doing that shouldn't, we need to know and *do* something about it, whether it is in regards to Israel or our selves.  Are we or our government really helping, or are we hurting Israel?  How are we suppose to help?  I think your response to the criticism and the

Scriptures are a good resource to answer this. 

To all, I think we need to focus on the issue at hand, fixing our nation's flaws ... if that requires addressing foreign relations with Israel, then let's deal objectively with that particular issue in context.

To those that have withdrawn their support of WTP, I am somewhat disappointed.   To me, the point of having a productive discussion about an issue is to gather and *share* facts from as many sources as possible to get the best picture and understanding of what is the TRUTH.  If one just say basically, "I quit", I see this as a non-contribution and retards the progress of enlightenment and truth, especially to the one that turns away.  Last time I checked, God didn't tell me everything I should know and do.  I have to search things out.  I am certain He will reveal what is true as I (we) seek it, instead of hiding from it.  I know I need to understand this issue better before I make an informed decision on it, so please help shed your light on the subject. 

To those in opposition, does it matter who the experts (*humans* with a greater amount of experience / knowledge) are on this matter?  What if what they say IS TRUE?  A good dose of skepticism is healthy, so long as it doesn't override all reason and cause the gold to be discarded with the dross, or to "throw the baby out with the bath water."  If something they say is false, then please back your assertions of the contrary with relevant evidence that can be evaluated (and please leave the straw men out).  Thanks. 

Thank you for your vigilance, Bob.  Keep up the good fight ... 

Regards,

Seth

Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 12:21 PM

To: bob@givemeliberty.org

Subject: Kahazars 

If you haven't read Arthur Koestler's "The 13th Tribe" do so. Then read

Rev. 2:9 & 3:9. Kahazars (Jews of today" are not Israelites, Hebrews,

Jews of the Bible.

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 5:56 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Holy Scriptures/How Well Informed Are We?

Your article was to the point. The following will shed light on the Historical,Political and Bibical portions of the issue: 

  http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm.

Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:15 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject:

Dear Bob:

Regarding your 4-10-07 WTP message and after reading the 'agree and disagree' writings, there is no doubt that our people are woefully ignorant of Scriptural truth.  Some profess to be Christians but they are sadly misinformed about who the real Israel is. " The name "Israel" appears over 2500 times in the Bible and since it is to the Israelites that "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law......and the promises", (Romans 9:4) it would be well for Christians to know as much about these people as we can.  To remain ignorant of their true identity and as to their true place in Bible prophecy and history is well pleasing to forces of Satan and darkness, but it does not please our Lord Jesus Christ."   This is from "Suppose We are Israel, Does it Make a Difference?" a small tract isssued by Christ's Gospel Fellowship in Spokane, WN.  This is a very good place to begin in order to understand Biblical Israel and who the imposters are.  Until Christians dust off their shelved Bibles and read with understanding, there will never be any change in all the problems connected with the pseudo mini-state of 'israel'.  Some knowledge of how the Zionists claimed Palestinian land (and still are) is found in the book by the former U.S. congressman Paul Findley, "Deliberate Deceptions." 

 It appears that you are in a good position to bring forth the truth, but as always it will probably only bring more condemnation and accusations your way if you decide that it's worth it.  If you would like to have the above mentioned four-page tract, I would be happy to send it.  And unlike those that for various uninformed reasons want to unsubscribe, I don't!  Please keep up your needful work.....you are indeed appreciated.  Thank  you.

 Sincerely,

 Julie