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Sent:
Saturday, April 07, 2007 9:11 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Bob,
Please remove me from your list. I
tried to unsubscribe on your web site, but didn't accomplis
it.
You are wrong about Israel.
Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 1:23 AM
To:
info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel Controversy
Dear WTP,
I read your recent email regarding the conference where
Israel and the US
turned you down and Palestine accepted. I also read the
emails from members
who disagree with you.
I have a few observations:
1. Anyone who relies on ANYTHING that ex failed President
Jimmy Carter has to say, I have to seriously question your
sanity.
2. If you want to stick with the idea that not one cent of
our blood and treasure should be given to any foreign power
as 'AID', I am TOTALLY with you. If you are going to allege
that Israel is less deserving or more evil than another
group like the Palestinians then I think you are some
stealth anti semite group in disguise, your last email leads
me to that conclusion. A lot of people who you question
their biases, their intelligence, and their biblical
knowledge; I happen to agree with them, not you; some of
your conclusions on the bible I think are dead wrong.
2a.And your list about why we're wrong and you are right
sounds really
'arrogant'.
You have a really good organization here, if you want to
push this issue why don't you put it to a democratic vote of
your members? If you are 'we the people' then let the people
vote.
Don't jump the shark on this. If you keep up along the vein
you have been speaking I will remove my name from your
newsletter list.
Please reply
Thank you,
[signed]
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 2:15 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: re: U.S., Israel and AIPAC: "No, Thank You"
Bob,
Wrong on all counts...history, the Bible, and Islam.
A holy war
has been declared against Christianity and Judaism. Its us
or them. Remove me from your list.
[signed]
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:01 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Anti-Israel Sentiments
Bob,
First,
let me say what an absolutely awesome job you and your
co-hearts are doing to stem the tide of our eroding
constitution and our rights. Without your efforts I am
afraid we would probably have lost the fight, already. I
have been an avid fan and supporter for several years now.
However, I
am a bible believing conservative and, as a result, am a
stanch supporter of Israel. I believe that if we failed to
help Israel then our nation is doomed. As the bible says,
"I will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who
curse Israel." Therefore, I cannot and will not back you in
this particular effort.
I
would ask that you reconsider your position on this mater
and see if you can be more specific in your quest to limit
US support for Israel. I understand that there is always
corruption in any government and Israel is probably no
exception. However, if we cease to stand with Israel, then
I feel there is little hope for America.
Sincerely,
[signed]
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:38 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject:
If
Palestinians are being oppressed and their society is being
destroyed by Israel, and if Palestinians and empathetic
Arabs and Muslims in surrounding countries are now directing
their anger and hostilities against America because our
financial aid to Israel is paying for the destruction of the
Palestinian society, and if these hostile acts by Arabs and
Muslims against America are the underlying cause of the
domestic "War on Terror" in America, and if the "War on
Terror" in America is the proximate cause of the developing
Police State (euphemistically called the National Security
State) in America, and if the growing Police State is
eroding the individual Rights, protected Freedoms and
cherished Liberties of the People, then it would be
undeniable that U.S. foreign policy regarding Israel is not
in our national interest and is not serving the general
welfare of all Americans.
Their
religion, Islam, requires them to kill any who do not
convert. It's in the Koran, it's their law. Any Muslim
that says different is either lying, or has been lied to.
The point is, even if we pulled out support for Israel, the
Muslims would still attack the US. They have to, they have
no religious choice, it's the will of their "god" that all
infidels die. We are in essence keeping the Israelis from
becoming extinct, and thereby preventing the Muslim
hordes from turning 100% of their attention to us. It's
called a buffer state.... These people are the absolute
worst terrorists possible. They say to your face they are
peace loving and we are evil blah blah blah, and then they
strap 10lbs of C4 to a child and run him into a shopping
mall. Are we doing the right thing, yes. Are we going
about it the right way, probably not. Are American lives
being saved, yes and that's what counts. If you want to
devote time, money and energy to something, keep on this
right to petition and the illegal income tax. You need to
concentrate your efforts on one issue. If you get divided
between all these different issues you won't win any of
them.
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:22 AM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Taxation
Dear Bob Schulz,
I believe you are straying too far from our original intent
of proving the U.S. Tax system is unjustly applied to people
who are not legally required to pay taxes. You and I may
share the belief that many or our international problems in
the U.S. are centered around our strong support of Israel.
But this is certainly not the venue to address it. This is a
distraction that will dilute our original intent and
lose much needed support as well.
I beg of you to cease.
Sincerely,
[signed]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:08 AM
To:
info@givemeliberty.org
Cc: [redacted]
Subject: anti israel stance and loss of focus
dear bob,I must take issue with you with regards to your
view of
israel.being a former christian and now a gentile who fears,
loves,and
respects the creator,the father of abraham ,issac,and
jacob,iam
compelled to respond to your current stance about israel.iam
not a
person converting to be a jew however i attach myself to the
creator
and give my full support to the existance of the jewish
state based on
isaiah56 provision for the foreinger.bob if in fact some how
our
support of israel violates our constitution which i do not
believe it
does.,the word of god trumps our constitution,no apologies!i
advise
you to read isaiah49:3,6 it is they the chosen people that
are to be a
light unto the gentiles so that gods salvation for all
mankind will be
revealed through them.read isaiah60:11,14-16 then you will
know why it
is not wrong to fnancially support israel. who are you or
any other
man to nullify the word of god?these verses are not open to
this or
that interpretation.i would advise you and all other god
fearing
people to spend more time in the old testament which is
really the
only testament of god. the total answer to gods plan for
israel and
the rest of all mankind is in there.the fact of the matter
is
biblically speaking israel is entitled to a lot more land
than they
now have, see the covenant with abraham genisis15:18-20.and
by the way
around the turn of the century when some jewish people
desired to
return to their homeland they went there and purchased yes
purchased
the land and in some cases paid twice the value of the
land.dont you
think it is wrong that the palestinians will not tolerate
jewish
people living in a palestinian state,but israel allows them
to live
among them and even be allowed to be elected to the
knesset!i really
was behind this organization at one time now im not if you
intend to
go down this road against israel.this organization has lost
its
original important focus which was to expose the income tax
fraud and the irs crooks for who they are.
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 10:42 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Your Comments on Israel
In regards to your message U.S., Israel and AIPAC:
"No, Thank You" -- Palestine: "Yes, Thank You"
Israel, a nation of 3,000,000 people, is surrounded by
nations of 350,000,000 people, and Israel is the aggressor?
It is Israel's heritage that endears it to Americans. To see
the only quasi-democratic state in the Middle East fall
would negate our prior treaty obligations, I believe.
You are out of your mind. I wondered how long it would take
you to show your true colors.
I want nothing more to do with you.
Please remove my name from your emailing list.
Charles
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 12:24 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Disagreement with the ranks of WTP
Bob,
Over the last
couple of years I have been very impressed with WTP, its
perspective and its methods.� Unfortunately, you have
strayed into areas that just beg trouble.� Challenging the
IRS through your petitions and so on is one thing, going
after Israel, though Israel certainly needs to be taken
down, is outside the framework of your petition drives.�
Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the connections.� This side
track probably added fuel to elite's animosity toward you
that has resulted in the charges against you by the IRS.�
I'm not sure you needed that war---particularly with Cryer
doing a bang-up job with his case.� As long as you kept to
the points outlined in your petitions, you were on fairly
positive ground.� Mind you, you may come out of this
alright.� But why ask for that battle?
In this
update, however, you have really gone off the edge---with
religion.� That is to say, you played the God card.� That
was a horrendously BAD idea!� Your petition drives are doing
very well, and you were garnering almost universal support,
save from the elites you are opposing.� You were creating a
synergy, which I presume is your objective.� Relative to
that synergy, playing the God card is the single worst thing
you could have done---no matter how heartfelt your
beliefs---because it has the effect of destroying that
synergy.� You should have known going in that there are many
who disagree with a religious position, or with your
particular religious position, who will take issue with
you.� Trust me, I take issue.
In order to
bring my point home, I'd like to share with you an article I
wrote.� Let me tell you, I listen to Dave Champion all the
time.� His American Radio Show is generally very good,
though he�occasionally gets off on religion.� If there is
one person I will listen to when it comes to tax law, and a
few other things, it is Dave Champion.� However, his
religious diatribes, at one point, became too much.� So, I
shared this article with him.� His response to my article
showed just how unhinged religious people get when
challenged.� Mind you, when it comes to law, Dave is the
best of the best in the patriot community.� But his
eruditeness quickly gave way to irrationality when his
religious comments were challenged.
I hope this
article, if you are willing to read its ten pages, will
reach you.� Mind you, if matters not what you have to say on
the subject of religion.� The simple fact that you played
the God card opens up a world of recriminations, which you
don't need when attempting to build synergy.� No matter what
your personal religious beliefs, it is far better to leave
religion out of the mix.� The article shows you why.
[signed]
Sent:
Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:15 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel
Bob,
I am so saddened by your last letter. You've insulted a lot
of people who HAVE read the Bible and are fully aware of the
history regarding the Israelis and their Arab antagonists.
We are also very much aware of our American history and our
government's departure from the Constitution. That's why we
chose to stand with you. It is beyond me why you would risk
alienating so many of your supporters by insulting their
knowledge.
But the insults are not what saddens me. What makes me sad
is the fact you have taken the side of Israel's enemies.
You are allowing yourself to be used by Palestinian/Arab
terrorists to promote their cause. To them, you are just a
"useful idiot." Have you ever considered that our
government has also given billions of dollars to Arab
dictators, and thus, to terrorists? Why don't you criticize
these Arab thugs?
Bob, as a brother in Christ I plead for rationality. Anyone
who takes sides against the Jews will find himself fighting
the Lord. That is the consistent testimony of Scripture and
history. Let the Lord deal with Israel's "misconduct," and
let WTP find other misdoings of our government to
criticize. There are many to choose from. If not, I fear
your organization will not stand.
Regards,
[signed]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:26 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: RE: [We The People] U.S., Israel and AIPAC: "No,
Thank You" --
Palestine: "Yes, Thank You"
Bob I have supported your efforts for years. I Met you once
in Atlanta but if your going to start taking shots at Israel
then you can take me off your distribution and support
list. Your efforts over the years have been valiant. I
would even compare you to a modern day George Washington. I
recognize your right to express your views and opinions but
this one on Israel is a hot potato. Maybe you not trying to
take sides but this email came across that way. They only
way your going to defeat this tax charade is to defeat it
spiritually by pulling down the Satanic spiritual
strongholds with Gods help in Jesus name.
Defeat Satans bondage spiritually and it will be far easier
to win the Tax Battle. By attacking Israel I see you guys
are spiritually blind. I don't need to be associated with a
group that is spiritually blind. I will continue to keep an
eye on what you guys are doing but if I see any more attacks
agains Israel then you can remove me off your support
lists.
I am a Christian and I recommend you leave the Jews alone.
They have enough trouble from everyone else in the world
taking shots at them. I think it is far to criticise
anyone including the Jews but it is in the US interest to
support Israel.
Go check out this website and invite the author Bill Konig
and owner of this website to your meeting. www.watch.org
He is an author and White House Press correspondent. I
think you will get your eyes opened when you talk with
him. At the very least invite him out to lunch.
I'll be praying for you.
Sent:
Monday, April 09, 2007 8:42 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: U.S., Israel and AIPAC: “No, Thank You”
Palestine: “Yes, Thank You”
Dear Bob,
While I
agree whole-heartedly in the Constitution and protecting
America based on the Constitution, I feel that the lines
start to become blurred in regards to Politics abroad.
If we were
to look at the issue, Israel is of American interest because
we live in this world. The world and all its nations are in
our interest including Palestine. Why? Peace of course, if
that is another of what WE THE PEOPLE believes in.
We can not
and should not say no to Israel and yes to anyone else.
Especially since Israel is more of a democracy that believes
in FREEDOM for their people and treats their own people with
more dignity, and liberty. The things we still stand up
for here at home are the same things that Israel is free to
fight for within their own government.
I hear
people saying that we shouldn't tell other nations what to
do. I disagree. If any nation is going to kill, torture or
starve most of its people and not afford them the same
Freedom, Life and Liberty that WE THE PEOPLE expect here at
home, then we should not do business with them. By taking a
stand against such actions is taking a stand for our own
Constitution! This seems to anger other nations and just as
had happened many times in the past, they think that they
can hold us hostage for money! Look at the North Korean
situation? This is WRONG! We shouldn't hand the world
money as if we are afraid to stand on our principles! This
is the exact thing that we are fighting against with the
Federal Reserve Bank! We do not want to be held hostage
anymore! Funding our interest all over the world is doing
nothing for us, especially because our money is looking weak
to the world because of its worth.
When we
look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and their
tumultuous history with each other, we can see how many
times Israel gave more and more land, went into cease fire
agreements, only to have Palestine break their promises. We
can go back into history and play the blame game but that
will solve absolutely nothing for the here and now.
Cooperating in peace talks about their political problems to
help them resolve issues isn't a bad thing because that can
help bring about peace.
We should
stick to the issues and definitely cut back "giving" money
to ALL nations, especially if the money that is given is
being taken from the American people illegally through the
unfair income tax. THAT is the issue. THAT is against our
Constitutional interest. Besides we do give billions to
Palestine and money doesn't seem to be able to buy peace,
freedom or food. The issue is we need to STOP handing out
our money from our corrupt government to other corrupt
governments. We need to curb this free-for-all.
Why should
we just be handing money over to any nation? Let other
nations rise to the constitutional standards and participate
in trade with us! They need to stop depending on our "free"
money or "bribes." We need NOT give money to other nations
just so that we can have military bases on their land
especially while we are closing our military bases here at
home. We need to stick to the issues.
I do not
want to get caught up with the notion that the rest of the
world doesn't like us as if it were a popularity contest
because as long as we are talking about OUR interest, and we
really knuckle down and stick to that, they are still not
going to like us!
I am very
saddened to hear that Carter has a role in us veering off
the track. This is painful for me and duly noted. This
man's foreign policy is weak and too passive for a nation
such as ours who's Constitution needs constant protection
from foreign and domestic enemies.
As far as
the Religion and what God would want, that is defined not
only in the Bible, but in the Constitution we believe in.
What's right is right and that is what we should be focusing
on. Freedom, Liberty and Justice for all and those are the
principals we should be standing on for all issues. God
need not be made a mockery of by throwing in seeds of
division with man's doctrine's and interpretations. God is
for what He is for. Freedom, Liberty and Justice for all
and in that is love and peace and equality for all.
I say this
because of the e-mails you received about prophecy and what
Christian's believe. I am a Christian who believes that
God covered all of this already. I believe that prophecy is
spiritual and we need to be wise when conducting our lives
and running our governments. The Revelation starts within
each one of us. Besides, history has already played out
prophecy over and over again. I think it is time we learned
the lesson.
May God
grant us the ability to use wisdom in sticking to the issues
of our cause.
Sincerely,
[signed]
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:53 PM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Mid-East Policy v. the U.S. Constitution
I have just read "Mid-East Policy v. the U.S. Constitution"
published March 18, 2007. Unfortunately, I was not able to
attend GML nor have I yet read Carter's book or the working
paper. I appreciate your dedication to fight for the
restoration of our Constitutional heritage. In the future, I
also hope to join WE The People, right now finances makes it
not possible.
With that said, the content of your article demonstrates a
one-sided view. I do consider amount of research. I know
liberal researcher present biased data just as do so-called
conservatives. So you can understand my skepticism about
America's funding the destruction of Palestinian society. I
do not question that our government has supplied Israel with
large sums of money, but I also know the Palestinians have
received large sums as well. I also know Israel supplies our
government with services and products for which some of that
money pays. At this point, it is my understanding the
Palestinians do supply us anything in return, but I could be
wrong about this. You article suggests Israel is destroying
Palestinian society to enlarge its borders. What
borders--who decided what those are supposed to be. The Jews
never left the land of their ancestors. The Arabs ruled over
the area because they were a majority with power that
defeated the Westerners who were equally a majority in
number. Before both there were the native Jews.
My point is the UN's borders are the act of arbitrary power.
Jews had no real choice but accept the best scenario. Maybe
the Jews did provoke the 1967 War, but they did not provoke
the one in 1948 and what about 1973.
This is not preconceived notions, but history. History also
shows the Arabs never actually changed their collective
statement to remove the existence of the Jewish state. The
League of Arab Nations told the Palestinians to leave their
land before they attacked Israel in 1948.
They declared a non-existing state to deny the existence of
the state of Israel. The Palestinian government has never
fully completed its stated promises/obligations, nor have
they stop bombing, shooting, and proclaiming war against the
Jews. These are things I have researched using Arab, Israeli
and US sources. So again my skeptical meter is very high.
In my opinion, you asked the wrong people to attend GML to
explain why Carter and Mearsheimer and Walt's work is not
accurate. I have been listening to and reading Israeli
citizens discussions about the situation at home. Most
Israelis are not pleased with the current leadership and
problems with their government. I think many disagree with
Carter, Birnbaum, and others who neither see nor experience
the daily events. They see liberals at home, in the US ,and
Europe threatening their lives and well being and future.
Had you asked the Dr. Paul Eidelberg, President of the
Foundation for Constitutional Democracy, you might have
received the answers you sought from an Israeli political
scientist.
Nevertheless, I have to admit I have doubts about the
Israeli Lobby. I heard one of its spokesman interviewed
while traveling. My impression was one of surprise by the
authoritarian attitude. He basically told the listening
public the lobby did not nor would accept any meddling in
their affairs--they wanted no criticism, no suggestions, no
comments.
They intended to do their thing no matter what the public or
anyone else thought. It was for the good trust them. The
appropriate response was 'yell right' you jerk.
So at this point, I'm skeptical about the complete veracity
of your sources, but I do not doubt their is a problem with
the members of Congress who make up the Israeli lobby.
Sent:
Monday, April 09, 2007 9:37 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Yes to Palistine?
I can no
longer support you.
Take me off
your email list.
You
obviously have not done your homework.
Sent:
Monday, April 09, 2007 9:37 AM
To: info@givemeliberty.org
Cc: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel issue - caution
Importance: High
Bob,
I think getting caught up in the Israel vs. Palestine issue
is a huge mistake. It will only serve to dilute/distract
your (our) efforts from the basic principles you (we)
started out with. Whether or not the Israel issue is
repugnant to the Constitution, it is certainly going to
require much more of your limited time and resources than if
you would stick to the original issue of Income Taxes. I
realize you are trying to broaden your appeal to get support
from other sources by introducing the issues of War Making
Authority (Iraq War), Patriot Act (attack on Bill of
Rights), and Money/Banking Powers using the Right To
Petition Lawsuit, but adding on the Israel/Palestine issue
will only serve to muddy the waters at the very least.
Adding the War, Patriot Act, and Money/Banking issues were
much more logical moves than stepping into the Israel issue.
Those issues hall have direct links to the Constitution and
are clearly understood by most Americans (at least those of
us that take a few minutes to read the Constitution).
However, the Israel issue is not so clear. Using you own
words:
“If Palestinians are being oppressed and their society is
being destroyed by Israel, and if Palestinians and
empathetic Arabs and Muslims in surrounding countries are
now directing their anger and hostilities against America
because our financial aid to Israel is paying for the
destruction of the Palestinian society, and if these hostile
acts by Arabs and Muslims against America are the underlying
cause of the domestic “War on Terror” in America, and if the
“War on Terror” in America is the proximate cause of the
developing Police State in America (euphemistically called
the National Security State), and if the growing Police
State is eroding the individual Rights, protected Freedoms
and cherished Liberties of the People, then it would be
undeniable that U.S. foreign policy regarding Israel is not
in our national interest and is not serving the general
welfare of all Americans.”
This is one heck of a thought process to finally link it to
the Constitution. This is like playing that game “Six
degrees of …” where everyone can be known to be connected
to everything given at least six contacts (in your case you
used four). And while it may all be true, I’ll bet we can
come up with a hundred similar issues using the same
“degrees” of contact. I think you/we should stick with
issues that require only one “degree”. The War Making
Authority is plainly in the Constitution, and so are the
Income Tax, Money/Banking, and Patriot Act issues.
Furthermore, the Israel issue is an inherently religious
issue, and when you become involved in that faction you end
up battling peoples’ personal belief systems and trying to
get them to change or at least question their faith, which
takes years/decades/centuries/millennium and even eternity
to accomplish (witness the Israel/Palestine conflict
itself!!!). This argument immediately goes away from logic
and jumps into emotional arguments. All of this distracts
you/us from the original goal of We The People, to make our
government OBEY THE CONSTITUTION.
I can only assume that you are taking on the Israel issue
because someone promised enormous support
(financial/advertising/political/etc.) to We The People so
that you can proceed with the lawsuit and Redress of
Grievances. It does not make much sense otherwise…unless
your plan is to become yet another Political Party (along
with Republicans, Democrats, Constitution, Green,
Libertarian, etc.) and you are trying to establish some sort
of platform on all the issues. If this is true, then the
original Income Tax issue will be lost forever in the muck
of all the other issues (war/defense, economy, illegal
aliens, environment, social security, deficits/debt/budgets,
campaign finance, foreign affairs, world trade, welfare,
etc.) and I guess I’ll have to go elsewhere with my money
and support to fight that battle.
Sincerely,
[signed]
Sent:
Monday, April 09, 2007 9:46 AM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Have to part with you...regrettably
Dear Mr. Schulz,
I’ve been a passive follower of the We The People movement
for the last 5 years or so. I appreciate your conviction
and courage to stand up to the insidious tyranny of our
Government, especially in the arena of taxation. However,
your recently published stance against Israel’s and
America’s friendship is both ignorant and irrational. I
suspect the latter is caused by your biased belief that
everything the U.S. Government does must be evil. I can
understand your vitriol, considering that you almost gave
your life just to get the IRS to acknowledge you exist,
so-to-speak. On the other hand, you and your organization
have apparently not done your history homework regarding
so-called Palestine, its origins and charters, nor your
current events homework regarding terrorist bombings,
kidnappings, and (the popularly elected) Hamas’ lack of
intention to form a coherent government. Again, I suggest
that your ignorance is not based in stupidity, but in your
irrational prejudice toward our Government and ALL its
activities. But because I don’t have a lot of time to
follow people who can’t get it together intellectually, I’m
moving on and putting your organization behind me. I hope
you make some headway against illegal taxation, but I doubt
that you’ll be able to overcome ridicule for your foolish
stance in favor of terrorist organizations. I certainly
don’t want to be associated with such whimsical, woman-like
irresponsibility.
May God mercifully redirect your steps back onto the path He
laid before your feet,
Matt
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:21 PM
To: bob@givemeliberty.org
Subject: Israel and its Neighbors
Bob,
I understand the issues that you are planning to address,
BUT you need to include the fact that only one or two (?) of
its Arab neighbors recognize Israel's right to exist. With
this de facto declaration of war how else would you expect
Israel to behave except from a position of strength?!! I
haven't read either Carter or the article that you
reference, but if the very introduction of these issues
don't have the proper basis then We The People is just as
guilty as anyone trying to "make peace". Thank you.
[signed]
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